Milkshape 3D
 

Well, I've been a member of the Armada II community for quite some time now, and have always wanted to get into modelling, but to be honest, was pretty lazy about it and didn't put up much of an effort to learn.

I've used Milkshape 3D before (though, then it was just for viewing starship hardpoints) - Assimview is ok, though wont show animation, and can be hard to work with at times.

However, as regards to my new MOD, and since then, I've re-downloaded Milkshape 3D, and have it working nicely. I've also been taught quite a bit by AdmiralRyan, Major A Payne & a little by Yacuzza - So thanks guys for the help.

Nevertheless, I've encountered some problems. The people who helped me to learn (named above) don't all know as much about Milkshape 3D (either because of their using a different program - such as 3D Studio Max, or because they use Milkshape 3D for other resources.

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Now, I've (since working with the program) have encountered some problems that (hopefully) can be sorted out here. A side note, I'll be sticking this thread (hopefully so many more can benefit from it along with me). - if you do have a query yourself, feel free to pop it down.

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My Problems:

I've worked on three ships so far (two which have been of .SOD format, though have had to rework all the hardpoints) and one of which I converted (after a lot of trial and error) from SFCIII.

None of the models (although they came with them) have their lightmaps in working use. I've reapplied the textures as they were found (at least I'm 99% sure I have) and haven't touched or edited the model except for hardpoints.

I can't work out why the lightmaps aren't showing if I haven't edited the textures and / or groups. Two of the ships simply have no lightmaps (one of the .SOD format originals, and the SFCIII conversion). The third ship is fine, until you scroll in close and then the ship goes black (at least most of it) - The areas where the lightmaps should be (lights etc) stay put and don't go black unless you use the directional light, and then move the light - this results in failed lightmaps!

Also, a final problem, is that two of the models have hardpoints that seem to move once converted from .MS3D to .SOD format. - It isn't much, just the lights and the plasma leaks, however these play an important part, and I'd like them working.

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Thats all from me for the moment (until I get feedback and / or encounter yet more errors). I await feedback. :)

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Well I myself have trouble with lightmaps. But I can help with hardpoints - leave h_hardpoints centered on the cross - don't move it either way and yyou should be allright.

Hope you can fix the texture problems - sorry but I'm clueless as to lightmaps :confused:

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Thankyou :) - I shall try that at first oppertunity! :)

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Well, I use Milkshape exclusively to model in A2, and I’ll be happy to help, because that sounds like the trap I was in when I first began!

Lightmaps? I think that method will work, but I use the Alpha Channel to accomplish the lighting task. (You know, so the hull has shading from the directional lights, but the nacelles and dish glow on their own.)

First of all, what program are you using to edit the texture files? I use paint shop pro 7.

:beer:

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

I'm using Photoshop CS for the .tga files. However I didn't think the textures needed to be edited if the lightmaps were already applied to the model...

for (at least one) of these ships, there is two sets of textures, one named as normal, and then another (the lightmap version) as "name" with an "i" on the end. This for illuminious I guess...

The other two models that don't work well with lightmaps only have one texture file, however did work before I started messing around with it :p

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Don't the lightmaps have to be applied as an alpha chanel to the textures your using? Maybe im wrong but thats what I thought. Anybody Know?

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Yeah, see, is the program generating those files? Or are you? Have you tried using a stock texture just to see? In paint shop, the command goes something like this… Select all areas that should glow and then go to selection, then save as alpha channel. There should only be only one and once saved successfully, the file size will increase.

And as long as milkshape is told to use that tga, it shouldn’t generate any image files.

Hope that helps some, the problem I had was the whole thing glowed like a light bulb! The whole ship! But one I used the alpha channel, it was all good.

:smokin:

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Right, I've got a copy of Photoshop CS. So...

So, select the parts to glow? Then go to save as and in .tga format? - Something seems a little too basic with this...

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Yeah that would be. :D Once you have the area selected, and again, this is in Paint Shop Pro 7 (unfortunately I don’t have Photoshop) but you would then go to the selection menu and select save as alpha channel. Then you go to the file menu and select save to save the uncompressed TGA file. But anyway, I do believe it's an image problem, not a milkshape problem. At this point I would seek out a Photoshop guru. :nodding:

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Well, I found the "alpha channel" thing, it's there when you save - I've just never noticed it before due to me not needing to see it.

Anyhow, still doesn't work.

Just to clarify what I did: used the "Magic Wand" tool, selected the parts I wished to glow, and then saved the file - correct?

Note also, it would appear that the alpha channel is always on when i save a .tga file anyway!

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Well, after re-reading the post, it could be some kind of conversion problem, (unlikely) but without actually looking at the files, it's hard to say what might be going on. (could be a photoshop issue, I don't know the commands) If you want to send me some files, I'll be able to help you more. Or, like I said, just reassign the group to have a stock texture and then export a test sod. It will look strange, but you'll see if the lights are working or not. :smokin: In other words, that test should tell you if it's a texture related issue.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

What is your e-mail? I can send you one of the non-working ships and you can take a look at it if you so wish. :)

Thanks in advance!

Can't seem to convert SFC files to ST:Armada II files
 

I'm new to modding and have been trying to convert some SFC files to Armada SOD files with Milkshape but I cant seem to get it right. Sometimes the after I've exported the file, it will work and I'll have a SOD and the TGA texture files to go along with it. Most of the time though, I will only get the SOD file and no texture files. Also, when I try to view the mod with the SOD viewer, not even the shape comes up. If anyone out there could give me some advice or some idea as to what I'm doing wrong, that would be most appreciated. Thank you all for your time and your advice with this problem.

Re: Can't seem to convert SFC files to ST:Armada II files
 

Have you deleted all the SFC hardpoints? If not, you need to remove them all, and then rework each of them for Armada (SOD) format. Do you also mind me asking which vessels you have planned on converting, and if they are for personal use, or a public release??

Re: Can't seem to convert SFC files to ST:Armada II files
 

First of all, thank you for your timley reply to my question. As for what models I was planning to convert, I had seen some models on a website called battleclinic that looked really great. In my reasearch, it appeared that there were many hundreds of models out there for games such as the SFC series, Bridge Commander, Klingon Acadamy but not many for armada. While I can appreciate the joy of actually commanding one of these ships in ship to ship combat, I also think it would be grat to see these vessels in fleet actions such as those found in the Armada series. Most of the mods I have found for Armada II are fantastic. The quality is impecable! The bad side is that there are so many more that I think would make a great addition to any Armada fleet.

For the question of wether or not this was for personal use or public release, this is for personal use only. Due to my being new at this, I have no clue as to how to put together a mod package. Also I have concerns with releasing someone elses work without proper authorization. If in time I get better at this modding thing, than I may try to put together something. For now though, this is for my game only. Besids, I would feel horrible if I caused somones system to crash because I didn't know what I was doing. In regards to the reworking of the hardpoints, how do identify them in milkshape?

Re: Can't seem to convert SFC files to ST:Armada II files
 

Well, here is a link to a very handy Milkshape 3D Turotial - This is what I used for various SFC conversions myself :)

Composed by Major A Payne, and a great job he did. The only thing missing is how to apply textures to a model (something I am also working on).

Anyhow, once you have a model, (in brief) you need to remove all hardpoints, then add them (as it says on the link). - As for the textures, you have Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro or Gimp Editor? - You'll need to change the .bmp textures to .tga, then resave and then reapply them afterwards (makes sure they are in the same folder as your model).

I also reccomend that you save the file as a .MS3D extension, and then (once completed with hardpoints and such) export it to .SOD format. :)

I've also sent you a PM regarding some stuff... If you can get back to me on that, I'd be greatful :)

Edit: PM Being Written Now!
Edit: PM Sent!

Re: Can't seem to convert SFC files to ST:Armada II files
 

I'm also trying to do this with a BSG.

Once I've done everything though, all that comes out is the white/red cube, does anyone know what went wrong?

Also, what is the SOD viewer, I dont seem to be able find it.

Re: Can't seem to convert SFC files to ST:Armada II files
 

Well, from what I understand, that white box with the red bug on it is a default sod probably used by the developers to tell them when a model isn't showing up.
It usually appears when the game calls for something that isn't there. Like if the fbattle.odf calls for the fbattle.sod, but the sod is missing (or misspelled) you'll see that default box.
I think there are other instances that'll get you the box, but it's hard to figure out if I'm not there. If I were to hazard a guess, it might be the model wasn't fully/properly converted to sod format.

Not sure if this is what they were talking about, but could it be the Storm3D Viewer? I assume you know where to find it?

Re: Can't seem to convert SFC files to ST:Armada II files
 

When you get this problem with exporting models, check the linking between nodes and that you have spelt them correctly. I've tended to suggest to modellers who try this that they node a model in sections:

firstly place in the mesh nodes and primary parent node (the one thats taken as the root for the others to attach to). Just having these three should get the model to appear in the SOD editor/viewer. Then make a quick save (always remember to save after each step). Next, add in the critical nodes and then export again. Then add the lighting and venting nodes (this is usually where I see people seem to make mistakes) and export. Finally add in the normal hardpoints and export.

If during any of these steps you find that the white cube appears then check your spelling and that the node has been added correctly.

Re: Can't seem to convert SFC files to ST:Armada II files
 

Thank you both. I'm having a bit of trouble though, where is the SOD editor/viewer, as this is my first time using MS3D.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

:moved:

From: Modding & Editing
To: Problems, Errors, Help & Other

Thread Also Merged!

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Downloaded Storm, trying it out now.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

More Problems :(

Firstly, the "e_steammed / e_plasmamed" - how the hell do you have more than one in MS3D? Everything I've currently tried doesn't work, and I know that it can be done. It is said in a tutorial that you put "e_plasmamed_1" after the first, but this just doesn't work, nor does adding an "_01" afterward.

It's really (speaking bluntly) pissing me off that I can only have the one - the same with hull lights.

Another problem is rotating hardpoints (I know this can be done with MS3D as it has an "animate" button in it). With shipyards (all that I've worked with at the moment) hey all have to be facing foward else the ships build and pop out the side of them.

Whilst also taking about shipyards, the repair hardpoint. Where the hell do you place this? I would have thought it to be in the centre of the shipyard, however when doing this, ships think it is funny to put half the ship in the dock, and half on the outside (as if the side of the ship is lining up with the repair hardpoint) - You can then move the repair hardpoint over, but then the smaller ships don't look right in the dock (as they are over at the side)...

There a way to sort that out?

There was also something else, but I can't remember so it'll have to wait!

Crashing Error
 

So i went back to milkshape, by some miricle managed to convert a 3ds file to a working sod that apeared in storm 3d all worked fine then i put it in game and the race that has the ship crashes the game when it trys to load, i get the errer saying im basicly out of memory, this has not been a proble be for on any mods that i have run on my machine, and i have 1Gb of ram, yet when i run the game in map editor view and then add a fed starbase and build it from there it all works fine??? my head hearts!

Split and new thread created in other forum section - J7
Added to the Milkshape 3D Thread - SSA

Re: Mods (Moreover, the lack of them)
 

It means that there is a missing quotation mark in an odf you edited - I would check all through the odf's until you find one. It shouldn't take too long if you sort the files by date modified/show in groups.

Re: Crashing Error
 

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Well as for the ship not showing up, and only getting a box, try adding baseName = "sodname" in the ship odf, that way you know for sure. But if you think it’s a joint tree problem, there’s a trick that will generate a tree for you. I’ll get back to this in a minute. SSA, I haven’t had much luck with adding more than one e_plasmamed to a model (I agree I think it is possible), but you can add more than one light. Like, I have one model with s_bluestrobebig_7 for example and they all work. It goes h_root then h_lights then the various lights all go from that one.

Anyway the simple Joint Tree...
This will generate a minimal joint tree that you can add stuff on to:

In Milkshape with all groups textured and finished:
Click on the Joints tab and make sure it’s empty
Then click File, Export, Armada SOD…
Change the Save as Type to Armada 2 SOD
Then type the name of the file and click Save
Now click on the Tools menu and select Assimsoft Harpoints Tool
Change Files of Type to read Armada Model
Select the file you just saved and click Open

Now you should see a list of joints on the Joints tab. I wouldn't move any of those points, but you can select them to add ones on.
:beer: Hope that helps! :naughty:

Oh, I almost forgot, if you’re having trouble rotating a joint, place a joint onto it as to make a "handle" that you can use to turn it. Good Luck!

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

crazyferrengi http://www.filefront.ft6.com/Forums/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_2637854", true);
Engage!

As you perform these conversion keep you eyes on the poly count. Many of the ships from SFC have high poly counts. Also, you will not that many of them have multiple textures.

As for ships not showing up, keep it simple in your heirarchy. Start off with the root node and mesh nodes export to sod format and check in Storm 3d viewer. Proceed from there.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

About these... They are possible, I simply just don't believe them to be in MS3D - perhalps the program just doesn't like the use of more than one.

This would work for build and repair HP's?

Also, if anyone (again) knows this, then please, please tell me!

And now I remember. Sometimes, you open up MS3D and (usually with stations) the parts appear all over the place not making a "complete" model. Whats with this?

Thats for the current help though Slider :)

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Yeah, the rotation trick would work. Might have to use a little trial and error. And the repair point is tricky; I make shipyards with several repair points, and then try each one in the odf to see which works best. I believe the left most side of the ship will line up with the point, or something like that.

And if you’re model parts are all re-arranged in the game, it’s probably because the joint tree is a mess. If the joints for the meshes are not perfectly lined up, the parts will not be either. Use the method I laid out above, it will create all the basic joints for you, then you can add lights and stuff.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

CDP, are you changing Save as Type to be an armada 2 sod, not armada 1? What parts are visible, only certain groups, or only the lit parts, etc?

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

heh, well I can't get the build HP's to work whatever I do, ships are built straight out regardless of what I do with the build HP.

I've seen stuff like this, where it says:But what exactly does this do / mean, and what number needs to be put there? (and why)...

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

SSA, i also have a problem with vipers coming out the front of battlestars instead of the viper bay. I anyone can help, please do :)

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

just the lit bites ocasionaly half a

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Someone forgot to finish what they were saying... :p

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Hmm, I have an Excelsior that does that, but I think it was for armada 1. :confused:

When I want a pod / build / repair point, I’ll click the h_hardpoints joint on the Joint tab, and then on the Model tab, I’ll click the Joint button. Then I click where I want to place it, then I click again about an inch away. You can then click on the Joint tab again and rename the first joint to h_hp01 or whatever, and you can move the second one so the first joint you added will rotate. Then just save and export. The second joint doesn’t need to be renamed. The trick is, it’s hard to tell exactly where it will be pointed in game. Sometimes it’s opposite what you would think.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

So...

Say you select a joint, and name it as "h_repair" - you would then connect a second joint to that, and then put it in the direction you wish something to go? - the un-named hardpoint would be the direction in which the ship was built or repaired?

Ok, so you've done that, what about this:Indeed, what does this mean? - What does it do, what number means what...

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

it could be an unused yes/no command which was replaced with hard coding. I may be a command to say what side of the hardpoint the ship lines up, ie: 0 is above. Try changing the value and see what happens.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Ok. Well, first I do hope that you guys are finding these comments helpful and not just a waist of time, :cheers: but anyway, about the repairSide = 0 command… Personally I don’t use it. I think it’s yet another command that in fact does nothing in the game because it’s hard coded in A2. But about the h_repair label, I’ve never used that either, I always go from h_harpoints, and then add a joint named like h_hp02, then from that, add another joint and leave it as joint3 or whatever. Then in the odf, I use the repairHardpoint = "hp02" command. But indeed, joint3 would point roughly in the direction you want it to go.

CDP, peculiar… :wiener: Well you’re welcome to PM me and I’ll send you my e-mail so I can take a look at the file for you. (It speeds up troubleshooting.) Or post a picture or something. But remember, my philosophy is, rather than give the man a fish so he can eat today, teach him how to fish, so he can eat the rest of his life! heh, anyway, since the import tool was used to load the stock sod, I would treat it as a conversion. So the following technique may help:

Ok, so there’s usually only one group and one material in a stock sod, so...
Click on the Groups tab and select the group. (mesh should turn red)
Then go to the Materials tab and look at the texture there.
Look at the file name it is using. (Should be to the left of the top None button)
Then click the texture and click delete.
The texture should then disappear from the list.
Click New and Rename the material if you want to.
Then click the top <none> button and select the same texture file.
Now click Assign. The mesh will retain the same application coordinates, so the model should then resume with the same look, hopefully bug free. (SSA, I tried this with your Hideki, no difference, fyi to save you the time, it’s the tga I believe.)

:smokin: If that doesn’t work, there are other things you can try with the mesh. I’ll try to check back, but honestly, my computer is acting up, so I may not be back as often. Hopefully it will behave like now, Good Luck guys! :Pc:

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Thanks Slider, I'll have a play about with Milkshape later on when I've got some stuff out the way - I'm sure me and DCP will let you know if we have any more problems :)

PS: We aren't wasting your time, don't worry :p

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Indeed, when we get some new guys on, we should be able to get some designs pumping out.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

CDP, I believe I may (emphasise on may) know a way around this...

1) Select all the joints (the lot of them) by either selecting the groups one by one, or to drag and select them.

2) Third option along (on the top menu) you have "Vertex" go to that and then select the "Weild Together" tool. I believe this is the correct tool to use, if not, try the "Snap To Grid" or "Snap Together".

3) If this doesn't work, scream at Milkshape 3D and tell it that your going to kill it. Hopefully it will suddenly start working! ;)

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

i wouldn't press snap to together or snap to grid.

that is if you like your model.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

DONT PRESS SNAP TO GRID, OR SNAP TOGETHER :p

Press "Weild Together" :nodding: - I've just tried what you said "don't do" Ryan! lol - A funny turnout...

:dropsjaw: :clueless: :micro: i am currently screeming at Milkshape 3D and tell it that im going to kill it!!!! :cort:

EDIT:
i found the proble, some of the vertex's are reversed, but not all of them, and it's not all the one's on, say for example, on the nessel, it may be 3 or 4 of them, which makes finding the one's to revers very difficult! and i have not idea how they got like that, it happens on every stock modle as soon as i start playing with it.

Just thought I'd merge your posts, it seemed to make sense :) - J7

*could you merge this to it as well please, thx* Does anyone know why when you export a ship from milkspahe to sod formate you get a loss in quolity on the textures, or atleast id do? plus can this be sorted anyway as it's begining to bug me,? PS i still dnt understand why some vertex's invert on me?????? but screeming seems to help! lol

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Hi, heh, well, first, I meant I hope reading my comments is not a waist of your time. Heh, anyway, the second laugh, is snap together, heh, and instantly, your model is reduced to a single point! Anyway, down to business. Again, sounds peculiar CDP. Which model are you working on? And you say it does it on other models? What version of milkshape are you using? I have 1.6.2, and I have run into some messed up meshes, but the texture assignment is usually ok. Ok, so here’s what else you can try. The weld together bit was a good start.

Select the entire model by pressing Crtl-A
Weld everything together by pressing Crtl-W
Now, assuming there is only one group, press Crtl-D to duplicate the selection.
Then you can click on the Groups tab and click on the duplicate group and click hide.
Now press Ctrl-A and then delete.
The duplicated group should be the only one left, unhide and select it. Then click on the materials tab and click Assign on the material. The mesh should have the same texture look, but the face shading and vertexes should be cleaner. Also, either rename the m_mesh joint to match the group, or rename the group back to what it was.

That’s about all I can say without looking at it. But tell me what ship it is and I’ll load it up and see what happens. Good luck!