Re: Milkshape 3D
 

I forgot to mention this yesterday that I mergerd the threads... Whoops.

Also, Slider, I don't think half the people bother, they have a problem, they start up a seperate thread about it regardless of checking to see if there is already one which may cover it.

This thread was stickied before, but I found that "less" people used it. Ironic that is, but the sad fact. Maybe people are colour-blind and can't see the "red".

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

sorry ssa,
i thought that the lighting may be a seperate topic so i started a seperate thread, presuming that this one was just for the actuale moddleing bit of milkshape

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Well, It's all good. The good news is, I think we're seeing more files comming in to a2files! :nodding: :clap:

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

CDP, I wasn't directing that at you! I was just giving an explanation (so to speak) of what happens. Not everyone has the time to go over other threads to find their problem, especially if they are impacient.

It's just a little annoying (not with you) but generally, when people do that, only to find the answer is in fact in another thread.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Ok archerscott, so after looking at that model, here’s some techniques I hope you might like. :assimilate: And I wanted to post it here for discussion purposes. :drink: All right, so when I create a Group in Milkshape, one thing I try to preserve is symmetry. And I say preserve symmetry because sometimes, once it’s gone, it can be hard to recapture it just right.:smack: As I change the group I will go to the Groups Tab and press Select, and then under Select Options I will press Vertex and uncheck Ignore back faces. Then depending on what I need to do, I’ll go to the Top view, or Left, or whatever would work best. Once I’ve got that selection, I click on Scale and then press only one axis for scale. Or you might use Move instead depending on what’s happening. :inthetoilet:
Also, I have a question for everyone. Do you guys think there is enough information out there on this subject? (meaning, making a model from scratch?):faq:

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Making a model from scratch? There is information out there (BBOM) - But if you mean via this thread... I'm unsure...

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Ahh yes, ch 13, I forgot. :D Well, happy modeling all. :beer:

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

I'm having trouble with the strobes. I did manage to put 2 red strobes and 2 green strobes on an imported model, and they work fine, so I'm not completely clueless.

But then I tried exactly the same procedure with a simple model built from scratch, and the strobes do not show up (everything else works fine). If I preview the model, the strobes are there, but they do not appear in the game.

h_scene root -> h_lights -> s_redstrobe.

Right? What am I missing?

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Hmm, you can put _1, _2, etc after the name. So you can have like 8 small red strobes, for example. Good luck. :beer:

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

That works with some models, but not others. I guess I'm wondering what the secret password is :-)

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Yeah, I know, they're tricky... I will just play around with it and see, like for example, I'll remove all the lights and make them again, (all in one session) or somthing. If it's real annoying, I'll remove the whole tree and start over, like in post #27. Good luck! :D:smokin:

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Info for Milkshape Users

1) You cannot use Milkshape for animated Armada models.
2) Be sure to read Major A Payne Milkshape tutorial.
3) The current sod importer only imports stock models.
4) Check and double check your hierarchy.
5) See information below pertaining to the Storm3D Object Definition (SOD) File Format as it will give you some additional insight.


Here’s the Storm3D Object Definition (SOD) File Format for those that are interested. If you’re a C++ coder this probably will make more sense.

Storm3D Object Definition (SOD) File Format
===========================================
Author: Steve Williams
Storm3D Graphics Engine Lead.
Copyright (c) Activision 2000.

Modifications : Fixed node specification error.

Audience
========
This document is intended for use by experienced 3D tools programmers
for the purposes of writing exporters, importers and conversion tools
to/from the .SOD format. A good understanding of real time 3D graphics
principles is assumed. The reader is expected to be familiar with
real time 3D geometry concepts such as lighting, animation & scene
graph hierarchies.


Introduction
============
The SOD file format is a binary file format describing the 3D directed
scene graph hierarchies used by the Storm3D rendering engine.
Each .SOD file describes one such hierarchy.


The SOD file format has evolved through several versions.
This document describes the latest format, 1.8.
Documentation of previous formats is not available at this time.


Datatypes used in this document
===============================
UINT8 unsigned 8 bit integer
UINT16 unsigned 16 bit integer
UINT32 unsigned 32 bit integer
FLOAT floating point (4 byte) value
VECTOR2 {FLOAT u, FLOAT v}
VECTOR3 {FLOAT x, FLOAT y, FLOAT z}
MATRIX34 { VECTOR3 RIGHT, UP, FRONT, POSITION } MATRICES MUST BE ORTHOGONAL.
COLOUR { FLOAT red, FLOAT green, FLOAT blue } Component range 0.0 - 1.0

Other local datatypes are defined where appropriate.

Additional Syntax
=================
TYPE ARRAY(nentries) - A contiguous array of nentries of type TYPE

Identifiers
===========

IDENTIFIER
{
UINT16 strlen(string), string (8 bit ascii values) including terminating '\0'
OR
UINT16 0 - Indicates null string.
}

File Structure
==============

Section 1 : File Header
Section 2 : Lighting Materials
Section 3 : Nodes - Written recursively from the root.
Section 4 : Animation Channels
Section 5 : Animation References

Section Description
===================


Section 1 : File Header
=======================

HEADER Storm3D_SW File identification header (8 bit ascii values) - no strlen or terminating '\0'.
FLOAT version Current version is 1.8, older formats are not described at this time.


Section 2 : Lighting Materials
==============================
Defines the characteristics of the vertex lighting materials defined in this .SOD file.

UINT16 count - The number of lighting materials defined in this file.

LIGHTING_MATERIAL ARRAY(count) Array of lighting materials.

LIGHTING_MATERIAL
{
IDENTIFIER identifier Name of the lighting material.
COLOUR ambient Real time lighting ambient component
COLOUR diffuse Real time lighting diffue component
COLOUR specular Real time lighting specular component (only used by the phong illumination model)
FLOAT specular power Specular exponent, used to determine the 'shininess' of material using the phong illumination model.
UINT8 lighting model (constant=0, lambert=1, phong=2)
}


Section 3 : Nodes
=================

The nodes consist of 5 types NULL, LOD_CONTROL, SPRITE, MESH and EMITTER which together form a scene graph which describes the object's hierarchy.

UINT16 count - The number of nodes in the hierarchy.

<Update: Note node_type & identifier order has been switched to correct error in initial specification.>

NODE
{
UINT16 node_type (0 - null, 1- mesh, 3 - sprite, 11 - LOD control node, 12 - emitter) DO NOT USE OTHER VALUES.
IDENTIFIER identifier
IDENTIFIER parent (which will be null for root node)
MATRIX34 local transform
TYPE_SPECIFIC_DATA<node_type> Type specific data field as defined below.
}


Null Nodes
==========

TYPE_SPECIFIC_DATA<NULL>
{
No addtional data required.
}

Null nodes are used for two purposes :
1. As 'glue' to stick the rest of the hierarchy together
2. To mark specific locations in the hierachy, for example, hardpoints.


LOD Control Nodes
=================

TYPE_SPECIFIC_DATA<LOD_CONTROL>
{
No additional data required.
}

Storm3D uses discrete (rather than dynamic) LODs for level of detail control. Each child of an LOD control node indicates a discrete LOD that the graphics engine may use when rendering this object. LOD selection is based on visible on-screen area.


Sprite Nodes
============

TYPE_SPECIFIC_DATA<SPRITE_NODE>
{
None: The appropriate sprite node definition to use is determined from the identifier. The sprite node definition is defined in the .spr files.
}

Examples of sprite node usage include running lights in ST:Armada.

TYPE_SPECIFIC_DATA<PARTICLE_EMITTER>
{
IDENTIFIER Emitter used by this node as defined by an @emitter description in the .spr files.
}

Polygon Mesh Nodes
==================

TYPE_SPECIFIC_DATA<MESH>
{
IDENTIFIER texture material (0 for default) - Defines the TEXTURE_MATERIAL to be used by this mesh.
IDENTIFIER texture (0 if untextured)
UINT16 nvertices : Number of vertices
UINT16 number of texture coordinates (ntexcoords)
UINT16 number of vertex lighting groups (ngroups)

VECTOR3 ARRAY vertex positions (nvertices entries)
VECTOR2 ARRAY texture coordinates (ntexcoords entries)

VERTEX_LIGHTING_GROUP ARRAY (ngroups entries)

UINT8 cull type (0 - no cull, 1- (backface cull)

UINT16 0 - unused must be 0.
}

VERTEX_LIGHTING_GROUP
{
UINT16 num_faces (all faces are triangles)
IDENTIFIER lighting_material (0=default)
FACE ARRAY (num_faces entries)
}

FACE_VERTEX
{
UINT16 index into mesh vertex positions array
UINT16 index into mesh texture coordinate array
}

FACE
{
FACE_VERTEX ARRAY(3) 3 entries describing a triangular face.
}

Section 4 : Animation Channels (Defines transform animation)
================================================== ==========

UINT16 count // Number of animation channels

ANIMATION_CHANNEL ARRAY(count) Array of animation channels.

ANIMATION_CHANNEL
{
IDENTIFIER node : The node to which this animation channel refers.
UINT16 nkeyframes : The number of keyframes used by this channel.
FLOAT channel_period : The length of time one loop of this channel lasts.
UINT16 0 : Not currently used. Must be 0.
MATRIX34 ARRAY(nkeyframes) keyframe_data : The actual animation transforms, evenly spaced over time 'channel_period'.
}

Section 5 : Animation References (Defines texture animation)
================================================== ==========

Animation references are a way of linking texture (flipbook) animations defined in the .spr files to the geometry of a .SOD mesh node. An example of their usage is the flipbook animation applied to the geometry for the various shield effects in Armada.


UINT16 num_animation_references

ANIMATION_REFERENCE ARRAY(num_animation_references)


ANIMATION_REFERENCE
{
UINT8 type : Must be 4
IDENTIFIER node : The node to which this animation applies.
IDENTIFIER anim : The animation (as defined in .spr files) that is to be applied to this node.
FLOAT playback_offset : Time offset in seconds to be applied to this animation reference.
}

Additional Information
======================

Vertex Lighting Material Sharing
================================

Vertex lighting materials are shared between objects, when parsing a .SOD file, Storm3D searches for a match in all previously loaded files. If a match is found, that material is used. This prevents artists from having to ensure the material characteristics of commonly used materials are correct in each file, and also saves memory.

A 'palette' of commonly used materials can be found in materials.sod
In Armada, this file is loaded prior to most other SOD files & so defines the characteristics of many common materials.


Hierarchy Structure (Armada Specific)
=====================================
Armada uses various nodes in a Storm3D hierarchy for special purposes.
These include hardpoints, damage nodes, running lights, borgification.
When generating new artwork, the artist must pay careful attention to the structure of the hierarchy for the new object to function correctly in Armada. A definition of the hierarchy structure required by Armada is beyond the scope of this document. For the time being, existing artwork can be used as a reference.


TEXTURE_MATERIAL Definition
===========================
A texture material defines the characteristics of the polygon rasterizer used to render the polygons in a given mesh. The texture materials are currently fixed and defined within the executable. Useful values are :

default - Standard material
additive - Use additive blending
translucent - Semi transparent
alphathreshold - Use for objects using alpha channel 'cut outs' - alpha
channels will have hard edged 'threshold' but objects will be
drawn quickly.
alpha - Uses entire alpha channel. Object will require sorting, so
will have performance implications.
wireframe - Use wireframe graphics.

Good to know. Saves lots of long hours of pointless frustration.



Indeed. This also saves long hours...



Probably to keep people frrom stealing others' work.

Thanks for the info. I don't see myself writing a SOD importer or exporter, though. If I ever make a decent model, I'll consider myself accomplished.

What about emitters? I followed the instructions, but all I get is the "bug box from hell" in the game, which suggests a problem with the SOD file. If I go back to the model and remove the e_steamsml, and export again, the model shows up, just fine.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Try this

1. Center your model at the x,y,z center (0,0,0,)

2. Create root node at the x,y,z center.
==>h_root

3. Create hardpoint root node as a child of the root node at the x,y,z center (h_root)
==>h_hardpoints

4. Create each individual hardpoint as a child of the hardpoint root node (h_hardpoints) placing them at their respective location on the model.
====>h_hpXX where XX is a numerical sequence beginning with 01

5. Create mesh node for each mesh group you have as a child of the root node (h_root) at the x,y,z center
==>m_meshname where meshname is the actual name of the mesh group in the model

6. Create a damage node as a child of the root node at the x,y,z center (h_root)
==>h_damage

7. Create an engine node as a child of the damage node at the x,y,z center
==>h_engines

8. Create a sprite node as a child of the engines node placing it at its respective location on the model

Okay, at this point your hierarchy should look like this.
h_root
==>h_hardpoints
====>h_hp01
====>h_hp02
====>h_hpNN Where NN is the last node you used.
==>m_meshname1
==>h_damage
====>h_engines
======>e_plasmasml

Now export the model using the sod exporter and see if the nodes are in the right place using the Storm 3D viewer. If this works for you try a similar process to add the life node with its respective children and the lights node and its respective children.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

That's what I think I'm doing. At some point I kinda made it work, but I was venting plasma even when the ship was not damaged. That was not the idea. :-(

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Typically, this is a sign the the hierarchy isn't quite right. The plasma may be venting because it is connected under the engines node which in turn is connect to the damage node. When it isn't connected in this manner it works outside of the damage instruction. Try exporting the model with the minimum. root node, mesh, damage-engine-plasma and see if you can get it to work.

I work delete the model from the sod directory before saving the new one as well as I have seen this make a difference.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

I don't know enough about it, but I have heard MS3D+exporter don't support animation, so don't spend too much blood, sweat and tears over this, unless you have the software that would work for it.

Well, I had some success with it. I got the emitters to work at the right time, but the plasma/steam comes out of the wrong place, and if I try to add more than one emitter of the same kind, the SOD is "damaged."

Them Damn Lights & Emitters
 

How on earth do you add more than one green / red light, or more tan one steam vent with MS3D? One would think you'd add "_1" afterwards (once you wish to get onto more than one) but it doesn't work...

Anyone know why? And a way around it?

Re: Them Damn Lights & Emitters
 

I have no problem adding more than one strobe by naming them _2, _3, but I could never add two or more steam or plasma emitters.

Isn't it strange, how we are using the same software and following the same steps, and getting different results?

Wait, do you name your strobes "redstrobe, redstrobe_1"? Or "redstrobe, redstrobe_2"? I don't use _1.

Re: Them Damn Lights & Emitters
 

I have the "_1" first. However if your way works, I shall try that.

With this also, one would think the same would be for the emitters (of which I'd like more of) a plasma emitter for each and every necelle would be a good start.

Also, I tested some ships today, they are inside out when in-game, and I have "wealded them together" - Anyone think of any other issue as to why this would be happening?

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Tips on emitters:

I. Use null nodes to get a specific diectional flow
1) Setup your steam and plasma emitters like you normally would
2) Add a null node to the emitter and place it in the diection you want the steam to blow. The heiararch looks something like this,
h_damage
==>h_engines
==>e_plasmasml
==>h_null01
==>e_plasmamed
==>h_null02
==>h_life
==>e_steamsml
==>h_null03

II. Milkshape Exporter and emitters

As far as I know the sod exporter can't handle e_steamsml_01 or e_steamsml_1 entries; however, there is a work around if you want multiple emitters of the same type. Setup the model with the different type emitters e_steamsml, e_steammed, etc then save the file and make the respective changes using a hex editor.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Thanks for the info. It freakin' works!

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Pepperman, thanks for the info. However (other than editing the HP's with a Hex Editor) is there any other way?

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

SupaStarAsh,

I haven't found any other work around to add more than one of the same type of plasma or steam emitter in Milkshape itself. You could add another spite to the spite file (copy and paste and rename it to some lime steamsml1. I don't see why that wouldn't work. You might also be able to get it to work using the Assimsoft HP editor but I have never used it myselg.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

I'm not a big fan of Assimsoft. However will try both the Hex Editor & the creation of a new sprite.

Thanks :)

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

There's also a help pdf on milksahpe's web site about editing files with an ascii editor. Maybe that would help? Are you still having the inside out problem?

:cheers:

MS3D Problems
 

Hi all it's me Majestic here.

I have been having a few problems with MS3D in the past week, I have been trying to figure out (with EAS_Intrepids help, thanks again) how to fix these but with no luck.

So I am asking here. I am very new to MS3D and modelling in general so I would appreicate any help that anyone could give me.

Question 1:
Whenever I attempt to duplicate something on a model or a whole model to make two that is already textured it seems to bugger up the textures on the model.

Does anyone have any ideas as to why this occurs and how to stop it?

Question 2:
I have been following Major Payne's hardpoint tutorial (Thanks mate it is really helping) but there are a few problems I am having trouble with. I am hardpoint the Aurora from Stargate Atlantis that Mark/Jigglypuff has made and allowed the Parallels team to use in the mod (thanks again mate).

The problem is the hardpoints assigned don't seem to stay where I put them, as when played ingame the weapon shots from in the middle of the ship instead of on the side where the cannon is (and the hardpoint was assigned to).

The h_hardpoints, m_[mesh], h_lights, h_damage etc are all in line with the h_scene root, IE, and all on the centre line of the model.

Any ideas?

Any help with either of these problems would be greatly appreicated.

Re: MS3D Problems
 

with the hardpoints are you creating them using the joint tool? as far as I know that is the only way to do it in MS3D, another thing is that I don't think there has to br a h_ before any nubered hardpoint, i.e. hp01 not h_hp01.

This may clear up your hardpoint issue, as for the textures going batty on you when you duplicate parts, I don't have the fuzziest, I am trying to get MaP to texture my Pulsar Class. Sorry I couldn't be of more help, hope it works out for you.

Re: MS3D Problems
 

For the textures, if you try and duplicated multiple groups with different textures, it will use only one of the textures. You need to copy each group sepratly and it will work.

Re: MS3D Problems
 

no it is important to name the hardpoints h_hp01 and so on and not hp01.
otherwise ms3d cant export them correctly. but in the odf you have to name them hp01 and so on.

Re: MS3D Problems
 

Thanks guys, the Duplication problem has been solved thanks to Greathor and CaptSyf.

Though the hardpoint problem is still probleming me, I am using the joint tool for hardpointing.

Alright, I've been trying to add the hardpoints to MAP's Osiris Class Station from AFC, and have been getting a mesh error. "Couldn't match a mesh node with mesh." I have no idea why this would happen, I've followed the HardPointing Tutorial to the letter. Any help would be appreciated. I've attached a .zip with the ms3d file, 3ds file, and textures.

Edit:
Can anyone tell me if this is the correct Joint Hierarchy?

h_scene root

m_meshname1

m_meshname2

...

h_damage

h_sensors

h_life

e_steamsml

h_shields

h_crew

h_engines

e_plasmasml

h_target

h_lights

s_redstrobe

s_greenstrobe

h_geometry

h_hardpoints

h_hp01

h_hp02

...

h_dock

h_repair

h_build

Re: Hardpointing in MS3D
 

without looking at the file it shoulds like you have a mesh node that is incorrectly named or not needed.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Moved & Merged!

thanks SSA

Yeah, thats what I thought to but I couldn't find anything... The textures in use on the mesh are MAPjst2, MAPjst3, MAPjst4, and MAPjst5. thus I've named the mesh hp's m_MAPjst2, m_MAPjst3, m_mMAPjst4, and m_MAPjst5. Am I supposed to use the group name that the texture is assigned to instead of the texture name on the mesh hardpoints?

Edit:
well I solved my own problem, the group names were MAPjst1-MAPjst4 but had textures MAPjst2-MAPjst5, so I goofed and named the m_ hardpoints after the textures instead of after the groups...

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

I am having a problem with some models I converted from SFC3.

When they don't have any joints and I export them to SOD they appear fine. They even do after I merge a stock joint layout onto them, but after I move some hp's and delete the unneeded joints like the lights etc and I export it to sod, it appears to be in the wrong position. IE, when loaded in Storm3D instead of seeing the back of the model after loading, its on a strange angle.

Does anyone know what the problem is?

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

The rotation of the joints, its happened to me a few times. How I fixed that was to merge the model onto a good hp map and then edit that

Thats what I am already doing. I am getting the hp maps from the stock models. I am not rotating any of the joints.

Edit:
I think the thread should be stickied but I will leave that up to the Mods to decide.

Anyway the reason for this post.

I have a general MS3D question. Is there a max number of mesh parts that a SOD model can have?

And if show what is that max number?

If anyone can answer these 2 questions it would be appreicated.

Thanks.

Re: SOD Meshes - Milkshape3D
 

This hasn't really been tested thoroughly to my knowledge, but the most I've ever had is around 35.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Good Idea :)

Stuck! - I've also moved your thread into the correct place. The reason you couldn't find the thread is because you were looking in "Modding & Editing". The thread is in "Problems, Errors, Help & Other" :)

Re: SOD Meshes - Milkshape3D
 

Ah okay. Thanks. :)

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Majestic,

I have converted several models from SFC and BC and the best way to do this is to delete the entire heirarchy and start from stratch. In the long run it will save you time and fustration. If you have the importer that allows you to import nonstock sod files here is a trick I use. After you have deleted the heirarchy save your model as a milkshape file, then export it as a sod (the exporter will automatically create the basic heirarchy for you. Now import the sod back in Milkshape using the importer and edit the heirarchy from there...says some time. After you make progress don't forget to save it as a Milkshape file again.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

Thanks Pepperman, I will give that a shot in the future and see what happens. Thanks again.

Re: Milkshape 3D
 

As for parts, that can go well into the hundreds, trust me, thats happened to me. Not fun making all the joints mind you ;)

Re: SOD Meshes - Milkshape3D
 

I've got a ship with 37 ;)

Hard point problem
 

Major hard point problems i am having. I'm using milkshape and i export the file into SOD and then when i use it in the game my hardpoints are moved around so the station is too high up if, it gets attacked the attacks don't hit the station and still do damage.

Does anyone know why this is happening and how to fix it?

Re: Hard point problem
 

Is the station in ms3d perfectly in the centre and that all jour maor hp's, such as h_scene root in the centre? That can throw off hp positions

Re: Hard point problem
 

I also have this problem and its getting to be a real pain, i have tried what Greathor Suggested but i still have a problem, like weapons firing from all over the place.:confused:
But the funny thing is it only happens on certain ships, so its probably my fault:lol: , or Milkshape Doesnt want me to make them:lol:

Re: Hard point problem
 

Do you have a way at all to get the model back into Milkshape once it is a SOD? if you do, delete all and I mean all the joints, make sure the model is centered, and export the model without adding joints to it, then import it again and all you will have to do is add the h_hpXX hardpoints. Sorry that this is contingent on a big IF.