This is why the Desert Eagle sucks in real life:

[Spicy Waffles]

The difference between a 9mm para round and a 45.ACP is about 2mm wide:



The ammount of gun powder doesn't matter, a 9mm will go through the same ammount of Flesh as a .45ACP.

Stopping power is bulls**t, shot placement is 100% of what matters.

and 9mm will do basically the same ammount of damage as any other slug (excluding buck-shot ect.).

This is why people stick with Glocks, they are pretty comfortable.

Before you ask, yes I have used plenty of guns in Real-Life.

[NRSabbath]

Negative. First of all you didn't even show a 45 magnum round or a .50cal round. Shot placement, granted, is important, but you're implying that a 9mm round has the same effectiveness as a 7.62mm round and a .50cal round. That's just stupid. No offense intended.

Also the type of shell matters. FMJ, APC, and hollow points will all do different levels of damage. Has no one else ever seen the video of the crazed madman in the school that took 8 9mm rounds to the chest and was still advancing towards police? (This is pre columbine by the way). I don't doubt you've fired plenty of guns in real life. As have I. But you're way off man...way off. Besides, what flesh are you firing at that all the rounds you speak of rip apart?

Have you actually seen a bullet wound comparison of a .45 magnum or .50cal and a 9mm or .45?

Also, the reason people stick with glocks has nothing really to do with the round it fires. It has to do with its useability and transportability and the availability it has on any given market. Besides, glocks are as common place as the Beretta.

If you haven't fired a Desert Eagle at anything other than a paper target I suggest you try blasting apart some ballistics gel, or better yet, fire at cinder blocks and see what does more damage.

The DE is one of the most powerful hand cannons around and I'd gladly take it up against anyone with a colt 1911 or beretta 92f or a glock whatevermodelyouwanttotrytouse.

(I'm half cut right now so if I sound like a condescending jerk I don't mean it at all)

[RustIronCrowe]

Being no terminal ballistics expert I would have no material with which to back up or contest any claims made within this thread... (Guns are kinda icky and scary and loud, so I don't even like to draw them...), but I do have a couple more grains to pack into yer already full cartridge, for what it's worth. [pun intended]

(Note: The 'spoilers' flagged in here are not really spoilers per-se. They really do help to keep the forum thread somewhat more streamlined though, so I chose to use the flag to break this rant up into sections. Open at yer own risk- Each is clearly marked as to its contents...)

Firstly, I can to a great extent agree with Spicy Waffles here concerning the comparison between "stopping power" and "bulls**t", simply because it suggests that the actual concept of stopping power is really not very well-defined, and so it can't be used in any comparative way. Then again, Spicy Waffles is the only one who has actually used the term in a comparative way...*Hmm*

Effectively however it would be safe to conclude that (realistically) stopping power would be a bullet's ability to actually "stop" its sentient target from continuing to do whatever it was doing... like charging, fleeing, or simply shooting back. It does NOT necessarily refer to the satisfying knockback that can be witnessed when a mesh constrained with ragdoll physics gets killed by a high-powered round (especially when they are standing on top of some high structure). This, I believe, could be termed something more like... "Ka-POW power" or something similar.

Then again, we are for all practical purposes comparing the "stopping powers" between the Luger Pistol (using 9mm parabellum) and the Colt M1911 (using .45 ACP).

Spoiler:

"9 mm can refer to a variety of pistol cartridges, but most commonly it means the 9 x 19 mm "Luger" or "Parabellum" round. It is used in a variety of automatic handguns and submachine guns, though law enforcement and military users are moving away from this cartridge due to the lower number of instances of one-shot stops (a stop being incapacitation of the target either due to death or grievous injury) when compared to such rounds as the .40 S&W and the classic .45 ACP."

-from Wikipedia: cartridge (firearms)

As for the actual amount of gunpowder not 'mattering', well... it certainly doesn't affect the theoretical ability for a small metallic object to pass through relatively dense material very much. This is until you consider the actual amount of force that is being released behind that little piece of metal, its direct relation to the amount of explosive powder creating this release, and its affect on the overall trajectory, speed, and presumably impact velocity on the target... not to mention a critical factor in the "stopping power" quandry which would be the bullets continued ability to travel after its initial impact (and what sort of wound it leaves).
________________________________

This will of course be making two simple assumptions (in addition to keeping it in reference to the game STALKER):

(A few simple assumptions hidden from the text-weary eye...)

Spoiler:

1) Being able to penetrate flesh implies that there is a lack of body armor or other material that may cause deflection or abrupt loss of velocity. Besides pigs and dogs (neither of which are prone to being "stopped" by any single impact) all potential targets will be encountered wearing the equivalent of (at least) a thick leather jacket, but most likely something of the kevlar or alloyed plastic range. Are we talking about the rounds that connect squarely in the torso, or the ones that connect squarely in the temple? And how many shots did it take to get one right? And we are considering only standard rounds, or do we include the +P varieties? If so we must consider them for both types, right?

2) The particular choice of cartridge for comparison is certainly talking about the uses in a semiautomatic handgun, for this is the only type of weapon in the game that would use one or the other. There is the "Viper" mp5, which also uses the 9mm parabellum (known in-game as the 9x19), but it has the distinct advantage of being able to fire fully automatic with a higher muzzle velocity than any handgun, and is no grounds for comparison. For a submachinegun-class comparison one could perhaps place side by side the MP-40/30 rd magazine (which uses the 9mm parabellum round) and the Thompson M1928 series/30 rd magazine (which uses the .45 ACP). Stopping power? Hmm. At what range? And how many rounds were released?

________________________________

(Some armchair theorizing concerning the dynamic of light projectiles...)

Spoiler:

Admittedly shot placement should be the #1 factor for determining whether a bullet actually stops the target from any further activity, but this aside the second consideration would likely be a combinatin of actual penetration power and overall accuracy. Both of these factors would be to some extent a product of just how much powder is in that little cartridge.

Shot accuracy alone may not be enough when having to contend with body armor, and so the actual terminal velocity would be critical at the point of impact, which I believe neither handgun is really in a position to contest, as they both fire relatively low velocity rounds. The 9mm may be slightly more likely to pass through to create an actual exit wound in an unarmored opponent, but we are not talking about unarmored opponents in STALKER.

Upon actually penetrating tissue it is also worthwhile to consider the actual dynamic of the round itself... Whether it continues through in a straight line to a vital area (one that would "stop" the target) or fragments into numerous shards and creating a number of shallower (but certainly messier) cavity wounds. On both counts here it seems that the .45 ACP would be the choice round, as it is not only better capable of maintaining trajectory after initial impact (therefore being more likely to continue wounding through deeper tissue), but also is more likely to flatten or mushroom on impact, which causes a much more noticeable "owwie" on the intended target without plinking around too much at random.

________________________________

(More random thoughts, straight from da' hood...)

Spoiler:

People "stick with the Glocks" (IMO) due to several conditions... One of which is, I agree, that they are pretty comfortable. The kick is more maneagable than that of a .45 ACP round, the overall weapon is lighter, the grip is smaller, and they are easier to manage (less recoil). Sure. They are also generally cheaper, more common on the open market and in schoolyards, use what is widely accepted as being the most common caliber of handgun ammunition (9mm parabellum) and, thanks to popular culture are just considered 'cool'. It is certainly more hip to say "I gots mah Glock" than "I gots mah .45 SoCom". I almost forgot to mention... generally speaking, the 9mm handgun variants carry a higher capacity magazine than the .45 variants, and so make for a more practical waste of ammunition. This may also be a factor as to why they are so popular.

On the other hand, the military and police tend to stick with the 9mm round (also simply my opinion) because of its lighter weight, increased magazine load, more universal issuance standards, and the overall cost per round to produce. But for "stopping power"? I dunno... Maybe we should ask members of the US Hostage Rescue team why they seem to be so resistant to the theory layed out by Spicy Waffles. For some reason they still maintain this idea that the .45 offers some advantages over the 9mm parabellum, despite the street-wise mutterings found in a gaming forum. *shrug*

________________________________

(And a final note. Possibly the only "true" spoiler in the thread...)

Spoiler:

Correct me if I am wrong here, but doesn't the Glock 30 use a .45 ACP?

-RustIronCrowe. Bursting bubbles since 1970.

[RustIronCrowe]

@NRSabbath -

Hehe... You said "ballistics gel". Cool.

Just to keep it worthy of a STALKER forum thread, I should point out to both of y'all that the Desert Eagle in fact doesn't use either a .45 ACP round or a 9mm parabellum, and thusly disqualifies it from further game-related discussions. To the best of my knowledge the Desert eagle is commonly loaded with .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum rounds.

[DigitalJunkie]

Rust I love you, that was a good read

[NRSabbath]

Bravo. You made me look like a fool, but bravo.

[waldo913]

"Seeing as you have "Replica" written on the side of your gun...and I have "Desert Eagle: Point Five-Oh" written on the side of MY gun..."

-Bullet Tooth Tony

It's all about hydrostatic shock, material penetration, and wound cavity, gents. A bigger, heavier round moving at a lower velocity (yet still above the speed of sound), say a handgun .44, .45 or .50 still creates a massive shockwave within a soft target, causing hemorrhaging and a gaping exit wound. Whereas, a smaller round (say, 9x19 parabellum), moving at a much higher velocity creates a smaller shockwave leading to lighter blunt force due to hydrostatic shock, and a smaller (if any) exit wound.

The more stuff you cause to fall out of whatever you're shooting at, the better chance you have of making it want to fall down.

[DigitalJunkie]

Uhmm.... Screw that, Just get a RPG7 and fire it a couple times. End of discussion

[NRSabbath]

Not to bring it back to life or anything, but I love the way this post died out and Soggy Wonton stopped talking after all of our replies to his opinions.

Haha

[DigitalJunkie]

Originally Posted by NRSabbath

Not to bring it back to life or anything, but I love the way this post died out and Soggy Wonton stopped talking after all of our replies to his opinions.

Haha

For the love of Fallout its SPICY WAFFLES not SOGGY WAFFLES or SOGGY WONTON !!!

[10ar]

The weight of a projectile and the amount of gunpowder are MOST important!
It's ridiculous to deny this. Basic law of physics: mass multiplied by acceleration. That's why you don't go hunting with 9x19mm Luger Parabellum!
Also, the shape of a projectile (round, pointed etc.), the type (FMJ, Hollow Point, Hydro-Shock, Teflon AP, "naked" lead, etc.) and the caliber (not so important - 7,62x39mm (the latter is the length of the shell - 39mm) is far more powerful than 9x19mm (shell is 19mm long - hence has less gunpowder inside), although the mass of the projectile in FMJ version is almost the same in both bullets - around 8g, but 9x39mm is more powerful than 7,62x39mm because the bullet is heavier, although slower)...
Then comes the length of the barrel - the longer the better – more speed and accuracy. Then the type of the fields inside the barrel - classical or polygonal or maybe smooth (as in modern tanks)?
Stopping power is no bull...t, although is overrated, especially in movies.
I have experience with many firearms and I can agree on one thing - accuracy rules!
It's better to hit the target with weaker round, than to miss it with more powerful one!
Desert Eagle sucks not because of the .50 cal or .44 magnum round but for another reasons (too heavy, huge recoil etc.) - try to hold and aim with this 2kg monster more than a dozen of seconds, after you run for a half an hour through the forest (or the Zone), and you already fired couple of rounds! Or try to fire standing (with both hands of course) just two magazines (7-8 rounds each) in the row and to hit the chest target from a modest distance! I will ask you in advance: How is your ankle? Just try this!

I would like to mention that although there are some hunting elements in my text I'm against killing animals.

[chester742]

Originally Posted by RustIronCrowe

Being no terminal ballistics expert I would have no material with which to back up or contest any claims made within this thread... (Guns are kinda icky and scary and loud, so I don't even like to draw them...), but I do have a couple more grains to pack into yer already full cartridge, for what it's worth. [pun intended]

(Note: The 'spoilers' flagged in here are not really spoilers per-se. They really do help to keep the forum thread somewhat more streamlined though, so I chose to use the flag to break this rant up into sections. Open at yer own risk- Each is clearly marked as to its contents...)

Firstly, I can to a great extent agree with Spicy Waffles here concerning the comparison between "stopping power" and "bulls**t", simply because it suggests that the actual concept of stopping power is really not very well-defined, and so it can't be used in any comparative way. Then again, Spicy Waffles is the only one who has actually used the term in a comparative way...*Hmm*

Effectively however it would be safe to conclude that (realistically) stopping power would be a bullet's ability to actually "stop" its sentient target from continuing to do whatever it was doing... like charging, fleeing, or simply shooting back. It does NOT necessarily refer to the satisfying knockback that can be witnessed when a mesh constrained with ragdoll physics gets killed by a high-powered round (especially when they are standing on top of some high structure). This, I believe, could be termed something more like... "Ka-POW power" or something similar.

Then again, we are for all practical purposes comparing the "stopping powers" between the Luger Pistol (using 9mm parabellum) and the Colt M1911 (using .45 ACP).

Spoiler:

"9 mm can refer to a variety of pistol cartridges, but most commonly it means the 9 x 19 mm "Luger" or "Parabellum" round. It is used in a variety of automatic handguns and submachine guns, though law enforcement and military users are moving away from this cartridge due to the lower number of instances of one-shot stops (a stop being incapacitation of the target either due to death or grievous injury) when compared to such rounds as the .40 S&W and the classic .45 ACP."

-from Wikipedia: cartridge (firearms)

As for the actual amount of gunpowder not 'mattering', well... it certainly doesn't affect the theoretical ability for a small metallic object to pass through relatively dense material very much. This is until you consider the actual amount of force that is being released behind that little piece of metal, its direct relation to the amount of explosive powder creating this release, and its affect on the overall trajectory, speed, and presumably impact velocity on the target... not to mention a critical factor in the "stopping power" quandry which would be the bullets continued ability to travel after its initial impact (and what sort of wound it leaves).
________________________________

This will of course be making two simple assumptions (in addition to keeping it in reference to the game STALKER):

(A few simple assumptions hidden from the text-weary eye...)

Spoiler:

1) Being able to penetrate flesh implies that there is a lack of body armor or other material that may cause deflection or abrupt loss of velocity. Besides pigs and dogs (neither of which are prone to being "stopped" by any single impact) all potential targets will be encountered wearing the equivalent of (at least) a thick leather jacket, but most likely something of the kevlar or alloyed plastic range. Are we talking about the rounds that connect squarely in the torso, or the ones that connect squarely in the temple? And how many shots did it take to get one right? And we are considering only standard rounds, or do we include the +P varieties? If so we must consider them for both types, right?

2) The particular choice of cartridge for comparison is certainly talking about the uses in a semiautomatic handgun, for this is the only type of weapon in the game that would use one or the other. There is the "Viper" mp5, which also uses the 9mm parabellum (known in-game as the 9x19), but it has the distinct advantage of being able to fire fully automatic with a higher muzzle velocity than any handgun, and is no grounds for comparison. For a submachinegun-class comparison one could perhaps place side by side the MP-40/30 rd magazine (which uses the 9mm parabellum round) and the Thompson M1928 series/30 rd magazine (which uses the .45 ACP). Stopping power? Hmm. At what range? And how many rounds were released?

________________________________

(Some armchair theorizing concerning the dynamic of light projectiles...)

Spoiler:

Admittedly shot placement should be the #1 factor for determining whether a bullet actually stops the target from any further activity, but this aside the second consideration would likely be a combinatin of actual penetration power and overall accuracy. Both of these factors would be to some extent a product of just how much powder is in that little cartridge.

Shot accuracy alone may not be enough when having to contend with body armor, and so the actual terminal velocity would be critical at the point of impact, which I believe neither handgun is really in a position to contest, as they both fire relatively low velocity rounds. The 9mm may be slightly more likely to pass through to create an actual exit wound in an unarmored opponent, but we are not talking about unarmored opponents in STALKER.

Upon actually penetrating tissue it is also worthwhile to consider the actual dynamic of the round itself... Whether it continues through in a straight line to a vital area (one that would "stop" the target) or fragments into numerous shards and creating a number of shallower (but certainly messier) cavity wounds. On both counts here it seems that the .45 ACP would be the choice round, as it is not only better capable of maintaining trajectory after initial impact (therefore being more likely to continue wounding through deeper tissue), but also is more likely to flatten or mushroom on impact, which causes a much more noticeable "owwie" on the intended target without plinking around too much at random.

________________________________

(More random thoughts, straight from da' hood...)

Spoiler:

People "stick with the Glocks" (IMO) due to several conditions... One of which is, I agree, that they are pretty comfortable. The kick is more maneagable than that of a .45 ACP round, the overall weapon is lighter, the grip is smaller, and they are easier to manage (less recoil). Sure. They are also generally cheaper, more common on the open market and in schoolyards, use what is widely accepted as being the most common caliber of handgun ammunition (9mm parabellum) and, thanks to popular culture are just considered 'cool'. It is certainly more hip to say "I gots mah Glock" than "I gots mah .45 SoCom". I almost forgot to mention... generally speaking, the 9mm handgun variants carry a higher capacity magazine than the .45 variants, and so make for a more practical waste of ammunition. This may also be a factor as to why they are so popular.

On the other hand, the military and police tend to stick with the 9mm round (also simply my opinion) because of its lighter weight, increased magazine load, more universal issuance standards, and the overall cost per round to produce. But for "stopping power"? I dunno... Maybe we should ask members of the US Hostage Rescue team why they seem to be so resistant to the theory layed out by Spicy Waffles. For some reason they still maintain this idea that the .45 offers some advantages over the 9mm parabellum, despite the street-wise mutterings found in a gaming forum. *shrug*

________________________________

(And a final note. Possibly the only "true" spoiler in the thread...)

Spoiler:

Correct me if I am wrong here, but doesn't the Glock 30 use a .45 ACP?

-RustIronCrowe. Bursting bubbles since 1970.

i think so for that last one

[Spicy Waffles]

I WAS TALKING ABOUT SLUGS, not Rifle rounds, shot placement is still the most important, Desert Eagles suck in real life because a 9mm still has enough powder to blast through a human chest, a .50AE or ACP will do the exact same damage only with a hole that is a little wider, the extra powder is only to compensate for the weight and width, it has the same(or less due to surface tension on the bigger slug) penetrating force as a 9mm. Why do you think Military organizations use 9mm? because they will do as much damage while having a much bigger magazine capacity.

STOP CALLING IT A HAND CANNON OR ILL COME TO YOUR HOUSE AND SHOW YOU HOW MUCH OF A HAND CANNON A GLOCK17C IS!

and FYI, 5.56 fucks up internal organs bad because it F***ING EXPLODES INTO SEVERAL PEICES INSIDE THE ENEMY'S CHEST. While a 7.62 will go in and make a huge hole in their back, but it's kick back makes the round difficult.

Don't argue, I've probably shot more guns than any of you will in your lifetime.

[waldo913]

Congratulations on that post. I'd say it illustrates the point perfectly.

[NRSabbath]

Holy. You went from mildly misinformed to completely stupid and immature, and sounding like a 12yr old. Congrats. I now don't believe a word you've said about handling a real firearm. Go play some more counterstrike.


EDIT: As I said before, go fire at some cinder blocks or ballistics gel. Until then keep your cocky, incorrect mouth shut.