This is why the Desert Eagle sucks in real life:

[Nyfie]

Originally Posted by tehv3r1z0nguy

/trolling on

Is it safe to say that Spicy Waffle is a five-year old boy who has no idea how ballistics work but still has a boyish fantasy of being in the military or even holding a gun? Is it just as safe to say that he would be considered mentally retarded in 48/50 of the states in the US?

/trolling off

... Go back to bed and drink your damn milk.

Oh and I second that.

[10ar]

Originally Posted by Roaming East

Oh, and to whomever posted about the 9x18. Its a TERRIBLE round. They designed it so it could fire from a fixed barrel system like the Walther PP does, but its pushing the envelope in what that design can handle. in a fixed barrel pistol like the polish P64 (which i have shot) the 9x18 is very uncomfortable to shoot. The 9mm ONLY has velocity going for it since it lacks good downrange ballistics and as the 9x18 has REDUCED velocity, it becomes a worthless round. It was designed to be a bullet mated to an easily concealed pistol but did so poorly, The Russians and Chinese have since started switching to the 9mmP and the only guys still packing the PM are East European countries that dont have the option of abandoning a design they have stockpiled for over 50 years.

First of all, you're forgetting that 9mm Makarov is not in same league with 9mm PARA and .45 ACP.

9x18mm Makarov belongs to the class of 9x17mm (.380 ACP), 7,65x17mm (.32 ACP), 6,35x15mm (.25 ACP), 5,45x18mm (bullet designed by woman, replacement for 9mm Mak.), .22LR and similar weak rounds. There was also an (former West German) attempt - 9x18mm GECO for Walther GECO pistol. In this class of weak rounds which allow design of simpler pistols with free-recoil mechanisms and fixed barrels, 9mm Mak. has the best characteristic.

The powerful class: 9x19mm PARA, .45 ACP, .45 Glock, .40 S&W, 10mm AUTO, .357 SIG, 7,62x25mm - 7,63 Mauser and many, many others... For revolvers (rimed): .38 Special, .357 Magnum etc.

The super powerful class: .50 AE, .475 Wildey, .45 Win. Magnum... For revolvers (rimed): .44 Magnum, .454 Casull etc.

Rounds can be compared only in the same class (same purpose)! And yes, in their own class, .45 ACP is better than 9x19mm PARA. .50 AE is much higher league, while 9x18mm Makarov is another, weaker league where stopping power and muzzle velocity are NOT the advantages - here simple, light and small pistol designs with fixed barrels and very low recoil are the name of the game ("for ladies", as secondary weapon and as service gun for high ranking officers - In WW2 German officers had pistols in 7,65x17mm (.32 ACP), unlike the field officers equipped with Walther P38's and Luger P08's 9x19mm PARA - same was for US; .380 ACP Browning pistols for HQ and rear officers and good old Colt Government .45 ACP for those on the frontlines - sometimes even S&W revolvers in the same caliber).

.40 S&W is probably the best solution for pistols so far, combining better stopping power (overrated though) then 9mm PARA and larger clip capacity and lower recoil than .45 ACP.

[Roaming East]

Oh i know what league its in, the pistol sucks though at its intended purpose. It was designed from the start to offer more power in simple to make compact pistols than the .380ACP. While it DOES offer a little bit more power, you sacrifice recoil and comfort and a pistol thats uncomfortable to shoot means it will be shot inaccurately. the power threshold beats the shiat out of the makorov and PA designs in any event. Nowadays you can get 9mmP pistols SMALLER than anything that fires the 9x18 and youll get a more powerful, less painful pistolto boot

[10ar]

Originally Posted by Roaming East

Nowadays you can get 9mmP pistols SMALLER than anything that fires the 9x18 and youll get a more powerful, less painful pistolto boot

What? Glock 26? C'mon! I have some experience with regular Glock 17 and it's everything but comfortable for firing, I can imagine how kicks his much smaller brother, sure it's not less painful.

Furthermore, regular 9mm PARA round breaks the sound barrier, regular 9mm Makarov doesn't, that makes him ideal for use of silencer. That makes 9mm Mak. a versatile round. For 9mm PARA it's not enough just to have special gun suitable for attachment of silencer, you must have special subsonic rounds as well. Also a slider lock is the ultimate modification if you really want that one quiet shot (one, because if locked the slider won't move and new round won't be introduced into the barrel, otherwise pistol still works like any other - here I have in mind special modified Beretta 92FS for US pilots).

Anyway, we are way off-topic here and I rest the case. Even the Russians are adopting the 9mm PARA and probably the best "weak" round 9x18mm Makarov goes to history...

9mm PARA is an old intermediate solution from Georg Luger for at that time (year is 1908) new P08 pistols (nothing more than 7,65x19mm PARA used on original Swiss Luger Parabellum P00) bottleneck shell widened for 9mm bullet), not very good, but most widespread pistol round in the world - and this is the ONLY reason why it should be used.

Luger P08 Parabellum was ordered by German armed forces, soon the Great War started and the caliber became widespread... Later, in 30's, two great pistols emerge (Walther P38 - one of the first "double action" and Browning's design, Belgian manufactured FN HP 35 - first with double row clip, "High Power" or "Grande Puissance" derives from this, nothing special about the 9mm PARA round - this gun is in the game, not very well presented too). Then comes the WW2, Germans (P08, P38, MP38, MP40 etc.) and British (for Sten SMG) use 9mm PARA, now is NATO pistol and SMG standard round - this makes this mediocrity round the most widespread in the world, not its quality.

If you want heavy "stopping power" round take .45 ACP (it's subsonic too, so you can use silencer), if you want light accurate round with large clip capacity and silencer take 9mm Makarov (AP Stechkin has 20-rounds clip and full-auto capability), if you want little bit of everything take .40 S&W, if you want Armor Piercing take .357 SIG or 7,62x25mm TT, if you want to kill a bear take .50 AE or .475 Wildey or .454 Casull... 9mm PARA just makes noise without real power, it's not good in anything, for every single purpose there is a much better round, it's just widespread...

[Nyfie]

Um I think you'll find that to use a silencer the round doens't have to be subsonic.
But it helps quite a bit to increase the accuracy of the bullet.

But on what you two are saying - as with most firearms and the type of ammo you use, it all comes down to personal preference.
You can argue that so&so round & gun is better then rawr and rawr.
But if the other person doens't like them, then they wont agree.
People rarely go for what's "better"(which is usually a matter of oppinion anyway) - they go for what they like.

[Roaming East]

if your not using sub sonic ammunition, the crack of the bullet is going to be quite noticeable. Certainly not as loud as an unsilenced gun shot but a sudden crack will NOT be mistaken for anything but a gun shot

[Nyfie]

It tends to pop more then crack when silenced.
With the sub-sonic versiony ou can basically only hear the action cycling.

But anyway we are ttally off topic.

I personally wouldn't take a DE into combat cause of it's size and such.
I'd much prefer something in .45
The person who made this thread is a retard - end of story. His reasons for not liking the DE are based on a fair amount of BS (like ALOT of BS).

BUTTTT once again, as I said before - it really all comes down to personal prefernce. SOme people like 9mm for is small small recoil, and large amount of ammo.
Others don't (like me).

So take you pic really. If you're 7foot tall by 7foot wide then carrying a DE into combat as a side arm proberly wont slow you down :P

[Roaming East]

Originally Posted by Nyfie

It tends to pop more then crack when silenced.
With the sub-sonic versiony ou can basically only hear the action cycling.

As the shooter yes, but for anyone on the business end of the weapon, what your gonna hear is a VERY audible crack. The point of most silencers isnt to keep the shooter unawares but to mask the sound from the bad guys.

[Nyfie]

Originally Posted by Roaming East

The point of most silencers isnt to keep the shooter unawares but to mask the sound from the bad guys.

NO WAY!

[Roaming East]

Hey, some people seem to not know the difference.