This is why the Desert Eagle sucks in real life:

[10ar]

The weight of a projectile and the amount of gunpowder are MOST important!
It's ridiculous to deny this. Basic law of physics: mass multiplied by acceleration. That's why you don't go hunting with 9x19mm Luger Parabellum!
Also, the shape of a projectile (round, pointed etc.), the type (FMJ, Hollow Point, Hydro-Shock, Teflon AP, "naked" lead, etc.) and the caliber (not so important - 7,62x39mm (the latter is the length of the shell - 39mm) is far more powerful than 9x19mm (shell is 19mm long - hence has less gunpowder inside), although the mass of the projectile in FMJ version is almost the same in both bullets - around 8g, but 9x39mm is more powerful than 7,62x39mm because the bullet is heavier, although slower)...
Then comes the length of the barrel - the longer the better – more speed and accuracy. Then the type of the fields inside the barrel - classical or polygonal or maybe smooth (as in modern tanks)?
Stopping power is no bull...t, although is overrated, especially in movies.
I have experience with many firearms and I can agree on one thing - accuracy rules!
It's better to hit the target with weaker round, than to miss it with more powerful one!
Desert Eagle sucks not because of the .50 cal or .44 magnum round but for another reasons (too heavy, huge recoil etc.) - try to hold and aim with this 2kg monster more than a dozen of seconds, after you run for a half an hour through the forest (or the Zone), and you already fired couple of rounds! Or try to fire standing (with both hands of course) just two magazines (7-8 rounds each) in the row and to hit the chest target from a modest distance! I will ask you in advance: How is your ankle? Just try this!

I would like to mention that although there are some hunting elements in my text I'm against killing animals.

[chester742]

Originally Posted by RustIronCrowe

Being no terminal ballistics expert I would have no material with which to back up or contest any claims made within this thread... (Guns are kinda icky and scary and loud, so I don't even like to draw them...), but I do have a couple more grains to pack into yer already full cartridge, for what it's worth. [pun intended]

(Note: The 'spoilers' flagged in here are not really spoilers per-se. They really do help to keep the forum thread somewhat more streamlined though, so I chose to use the flag to break this rant up into sections. Open at yer own risk- Each is clearly marked as to its contents...)

Firstly, I can to a great extent agree with Spicy Waffles here concerning the comparison between "stopping power" and "bulls**t", simply because it suggests that the actual concept of stopping power is really not very well-defined, and so it can't be used in any comparative way. Then again, Spicy Waffles is the only one who has actually used the term in a comparative way...*Hmm*

Effectively however it would be safe to conclude that (realistically) stopping power would be a bullet's ability to actually "stop" its sentient target from continuing to do whatever it was doing... like charging, fleeing, or simply shooting back. It does NOT necessarily refer to the satisfying knockback that can be witnessed when a mesh constrained with ragdoll physics gets killed by a high-powered round (especially when they are standing on top of some high structure). This, I believe, could be termed something more like... "Ka-POW power" or something similar.

Then again, we are for all practical purposes comparing the "stopping powers" between the Luger Pistol (using 9mm parabellum) and the Colt M1911 (using .45 ACP).

Spoiler:

"9 mm can refer to a variety of pistol cartridges, but most commonly it means the 9 x 19 mm "Luger" or "Parabellum" round. It is used in a variety of automatic handguns and submachine guns, though law enforcement and military users are moving away from this cartridge due to the lower number of instances of one-shot stops (a stop being incapacitation of the target either due to death or grievous injury) when compared to such rounds as the .40 S&W and the classic .45 ACP."

-from Wikipedia: cartridge (firearms)

As for the actual amount of gunpowder not 'mattering', well... it certainly doesn't affect the theoretical ability for a small metallic object to pass through relatively dense material very much. This is until you consider the actual amount of force that is being released behind that little piece of metal, its direct relation to the amount of explosive powder creating this release, and its affect on the overall trajectory, speed, and presumably impact velocity on the target... not to mention a critical factor in the "stopping power" quandry which would be the bullets continued ability to travel after its initial impact (and what sort of wound it leaves).
________________________________

This will of course be making two simple assumptions (in addition to keeping it in reference to the game STALKER):

(A few simple assumptions hidden from the text-weary eye...)

Spoiler:

1) Being able to penetrate flesh implies that there is a lack of body armor or other material that may cause deflection or abrupt loss of velocity. Besides pigs and dogs (neither of which are prone to being "stopped" by any single impact) all potential targets will be encountered wearing the equivalent of (at least) a thick leather jacket, but most likely something of the kevlar or alloyed plastic range. Are we talking about the rounds that connect squarely in the torso, or the ones that connect squarely in the temple? And how many shots did it take to get one right? And we are considering only standard rounds, or do we include the +P varieties? If so we must consider them for both types, right?

2) The particular choice of cartridge for comparison is certainly talking about the uses in a semiautomatic handgun, for this is the only type of weapon in the game that would use one or the other. There is the "Viper" mp5, which also uses the 9mm parabellum (known in-game as the 9x19), but it has the distinct advantage of being able to fire fully automatic with a higher muzzle velocity than any handgun, and is no grounds for comparison. For a submachinegun-class comparison one could perhaps place side by side the MP-40/30 rd magazine (which uses the 9mm parabellum round) and the Thompson M1928 series/30 rd magazine (which uses the .45 ACP). Stopping power? Hmm. At what range? And how many rounds were released?

________________________________

(Some armchair theorizing concerning the dynamic of light projectiles...)

Spoiler:

Admittedly shot placement should be the #1 factor for determining whether a bullet actually stops the target from any further activity, but this aside the second consideration would likely be a combinatin of actual penetration power and overall accuracy. Both of these factors would be to some extent a product of just how much powder is in that little cartridge.

Shot accuracy alone may not be enough when having to contend with body armor, and so the actual terminal velocity would be critical at the point of impact, which I believe neither handgun is really in a position to contest, as they both fire relatively low velocity rounds. The 9mm may be slightly more likely to pass through to create an actual exit wound in an unarmored opponent, but we are not talking about unarmored opponents in STALKER.

Upon actually penetrating tissue it is also worthwhile to consider the actual dynamic of the round itself... Whether it continues through in a straight line to a vital area (one that would "stop" the target) or fragments into numerous shards and creating a number of shallower (but certainly messier) cavity wounds. On both counts here it seems that the .45 ACP would be the choice round, as it is not only better capable of maintaining trajectory after initial impact (therefore being more likely to continue wounding through deeper tissue), but also is more likely to flatten or mushroom on impact, which causes a much more noticeable "owwie" on the intended target without plinking around too much at random.

________________________________

(More random thoughts, straight from da' hood...)

Spoiler:

People "stick with the Glocks" (IMO) due to several conditions... One of which is, I agree, that they are pretty comfortable. The kick is more maneagable than that of a .45 ACP round, the overall weapon is lighter, the grip is smaller, and they are easier to manage (less recoil). Sure. They are also generally cheaper, more common on the open market and in schoolyards, use what is widely accepted as being the most common caliber of handgun ammunition (9mm parabellum) and, thanks to popular culture are just considered 'cool'. It is certainly more hip to say "I gots mah Glock" than "I gots mah .45 SoCom". I almost forgot to mention... generally speaking, the 9mm handgun variants carry a higher capacity magazine than the .45 variants, and so make for a more practical waste of ammunition. This may also be a factor as to why they are so popular.

On the other hand, the military and police tend to stick with the 9mm round (also simply my opinion) because of its lighter weight, increased magazine load, more universal issuance standards, and the overall cost per round to produce. But for "stopping power"? I dunno... Maybe we should ask members of the US Hostage Rescue team why they seem to be so resistant to the theory layed out by Spicy Waffles. For some reason they still maintain this idea that the .45 offers some advantages over the 9mm parabellum, despite the street-wise mutterings found in a gaming forum. *shrug*

________________________________

(And a final note. Possibly the only "true" spoiler in the thread...)

Spoiler:

Correct me if I am wrong here, but doesn't the Glock 30 use a .45 ACP?

-RustIronCrowe. Bursting bubbles since 1970.

i think so for that last one

[Spicy Waffles]

I WAS TALKING ABOUT SLUGS, not Rifle rounds, shot placement is still the most important, Desert Eagles suck in real life because a 9mm still has enough powder to blast through a human chest, a .50AE or ACP will do the exact same damage only with a hole that is a little wider, the extra powder is only to compensate for the weight and width, it has the same(or less due to surface tension on the bigger slug) penetrating force as a 9mm. Why do you think Military organizations use 9mm? because they will do as much damage while having a much bigger magazine capacity.

STOP CALLING IT A HAND CANNON OR ILL COME TO YOUR HOUSE AND SHOW YOU HOW MUCH OF A HAND CANNON A GLOCK17C IS!

and FYI, 5.56 fucks up internal organs bad because it F***ING EXPLODES INTO SEVERAL PEICES INSIDE THE ENEMY'S CHEST. While a 7.62 will go in and make a huge hole in their back, but it's kick back makes the round difficult.

Don't argue, I've probably shot more guns than any of you will in your lifetime.

[waldo913]

Congratulations on that post. I'd say it illustrates the point perfectly.

[NRSabbath]

Holy. You went from mildly misinformed to completely stupid and immature, and sounding like a 12yr old. Congrats. I now don't believe a word you've said about handling a real firearm. Go play some more counterstrike.


EDIT: As I said before, go fire at some cinder blocks or ballistics gel. Until then keep your cocky, incorrect mouth shut.

[dannyboy01]

everyone knows they just give the military the cheapest most easily mass-produced weapons and ammo available......................................... .......
or is that just the british?

[10ar]

Originally Posted by Spicy Waffles

I WAS TALKING ABOUT SLUGS, not Rifle rounds, shot placement is still the most important, Desert Eagles suck in real life because a 9mm still has enough powder to blast through a human chest, a .50AE or ACP will do the exact same damage only with a hole that is a little wider, the extra powder is only to compensate for the weight and width, it has the same(or less due to surface tension on the bigger slug) penetrating force as a 9mm. Why do you think Military organizations use 9mm? because they will do as much damage while having a much bigger magazine capacity.

Originally Posted by Spicy Waffles

STOP CALLING IT A HAND CANNON OR ILL COME TO YOUR HOUSE AND SHOW YOU HOW MUCH OF A HAND CANNON A GLOCK17C IS!

and FYI, 5.56 fucks up internal organs bad because it F***ING EXPLODES INTO SEVERAL PEICES INSIDE THE ENEMY'S CHEST. While a 7.62 will go in and make a huge hole in their back, but it's kick back makes the round difficult.

Don't argue, I've probably shot more guns than any of you will in your lifetime.

Imagine military personnel running around with Desert Eagles (around 2kg plus clips, each with 7 rounds .50 Action Express ammo)
The 5.56x45 that you described is M163 projectile (weight around 2g) from Vietnam era - the most terrible projectile for flesh - it really disintegrate into many small pieces and makes horrific wounds - it has however a big fault, you could hide "behind the bush", anything on the way will disrupt his trajectory - needles to say, no AP capability. That's why SS109 is more heavy, hence slower and not so horrific - although still more the enough lethal.
Soviet 5.45x39mm is also one of the most effective bullets for anyone who doesn't wear any kind of protection. Behind the tip the bullet is hollow from inside and the gravity center is near the rear end, so the thing is highly instable (like F-16 without Fly-by-Wire) - this results in tumbling inside the target's body and inflicting heavy wounds - really big holes inside, which results in massive internal bleeding... Even if one is hit in the non-vital parts of the body, without urgent medical intervention, death is certain. The hand for example can be torn and will hang on the skin...
So, in S.T.A.L.K.E.R, 5,45x39mm should have one hit kill ability for all "soft" targets like dogs, cats, stalkers and bandits wearing only jackets, "orange" sci-eco-suits etc., or wearing the armor that doesn't covers the limbs. The bleeding should be much faster, and if you're out of bandages the Zone will disappear for you - not true ending but the end nevertheless.
Glock in all calibers is almost perfect handgun, but safe-action trigger sucks big-time. In 9x19mm PARA Walther P-38 is the best of all times and I would like to see it in S.T.A.L.K.E.R.
Berretta 92 uses the same locking and triggering system as P-38, but Berretta has double row 15-round magazine which is not very reliable if desert sand gets inside - and usually it does! So one row magazines rules for reliability, and if you're good marksman the amount of ammo is not so important, more important is weapon not to jam.
I would like to mention that PM (Pistolet Makarova) is in fact very accurate handgun because it has fixed barrel. Due to a weaker bullet there is no need for locked bolt, so the barrel is permanently fixed to the frame and doesn’t move at all when firing – this results in amazing accuracy. On ranges up to 15m, appropriate for this weak round dispersion of hits is very small (Performances of 9x18mm Makarov are somewhere in between the .380 ACP (9x17mm) and 9x19mm Luger Parabellum).

[RustIronCrowe]

Originally Posted by dannyboy01

everyone knows they just give the military the cheapest most easily mass-produced weapons and ammo available......................................... .......
or is that just the british?

I believe that it is a fairly universal condition that issued weapons are made by the lowest bidder... :lol:

The sad truth is that they are usually only expected to be in service for the lifespan of the GI responsible for it. I have talked to many folks who (in comparison) tend to purchase surplus boots, for example, for civilian wear... erroneously thinking that because they are 'military' they are somehow more durable. This conflicts with the required issuance of a new set of boots every three months (?) while in service...

[Serpardum]

Bullet weight will impact more energy to a round traveling at the same velocity, since a bullets energy is:

Link: "E"

Energy (of motion) - Kinetic energy or force carried by a bullet at that point in its trajectory. In common use and popular shooting literature it is expressed in foot-pounds, one ft/lbs being the amount of force required to lift a one-pound weight one foot above the ground. Formula: Energy ( in ft/lbs ) equals bullet weight ( in grains ) multiplied by the velocity ( in feet per second ) squared, divided by 450240. Often wrongly equated with killing power, energy is not a reliable gauge of this, as it does not take into account penetration or bullet performance.

Now, how that energy is applied makes a big difference.

The Colt 45 was made because in the Korean war the military was using a lighter bullet (not sure if 22 or 9mm, but about the same) and the enemy would tie tournaquets around their extremities and go on suicide runs. They would get shot, but keep coming as the bullets would enter and stay or enter and exit and start bleeding, but the tournaquets would keep them from bleeding to death or pretty much feeling too much pain and they would keep coming. So they came up with a heavier bullet, when it impacted them they'd feel it as it would as likely blow off an arm rather than just making a hole.

Now, the M16 was designed to be a lighter weapon for jungle warefare and uses the lighter 5.56mm bullet, which wouldn't impart as much energy as the 7.62mm. The 5.56mm M16 bullet, however, is designed to tumble on impact and may fragment, producing more damange than would be expected of a bullet of it's weight. Usually, however, the bullet would need to hit a bone to tumble, richochet or fragment.

Generally, however, a bigger bullet means more enegy and more damage.

I do know, however, that I am more accurate firing an M14 than an M16. I qualified Expert with the M16 in the Marine Corps (Highest) although barely. I had a chance to fire the M14 while going across the Atlantic and even being the first time firing the weapon I found it much more stable, even though there was more recoil. Firing off the back of the ship at barrels released overboard I was able to hit them very frequently. I never went to a range with an M14, however, so do not know for certain if I would of qualified, I just found it felt more accurate. And if you can't hit something, you can't damage it.

[waldo913]

Good post, Serpardum. Nice for someone with an actual military background to toss in their two cents!