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Steubenville rape case So recently a verdict was reached in a fairly well-covered rape case in the United States involving some high school football players and a victim at a party. The courts gave fairly tame sentences of a year each with deferred judgement on whether or not to put them into the sexual offender data base. Most of the defense focused on casting doubt on the victim, whether she had either given consent or her level of intoxication possibly being a factor in the rape. I was surprised honestly that this was even a consideration and seemed to have been attempting to shift blame from the attackers to the victim. Then there was this mind boggling thing on a CNN broadcast http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../17/rs.01.html Quote:
The media stories mention the role of "social media", including an Anonymous outfit's role, but not much more than that. Among other things collected here by the Anon crew were things that were hardly secret, but simply being ignored or covered up. It displays attempts by the police to ignore some of the facts as well as the high school football team trying to twist the story in a weird attempt to salvage the team's reputation. The police were motivated later to try and launch a site to counter the claims from the anon cell that accused them of corruption. Among other things here from the information gathered shows that those involved in this case, not just the two charged with rape, had a history of prowling for students to harass and rape, and ensuring that the victims' cases would never be followed up upon through intimidation. You can read more of that here, it's a sad display of some people's idiotic actions. LocalLeaks - Steubenville Files |
Re: Steubenville rape case Building on this, an interesting spin from CNN. Featuring the very line you quoted good Mercz. From this news cast I really feel as if CNN doesnt agree with the outcome of the trial. They focus on how the 'promising' lives of the two guys have been ruined... Who gives a shit? They raped someone. They deserve what they get because they committed a CRIME. What did they expect the judge to do, let them off on community service?! |
Re: Steubenville rape case College Basketball Star Heroically Overcomes Tragic Rape He Committed | Video | The Onion - America's Finest News Source Everyone knows that if you're smart or athletic, you can do whatever you want and treat plebs however you please. It's absolutely sickening. ;r |
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Though in this case, if I recall correctly, they had some photos and a video so it was rather clear? Regarding the point whether the victim's actions can be a factor in a rape, certainly they can be. Though saying that alout will create a hysterical shitstorm. Drinking yourself unconscious is a major factor in possibly causing some problems, whether it's passing out outside during winter and dying, or getting abused like this. If I keep my wallet in my trousers' back pocket, that can increase the risk of it being robbed, though of course it doesn't make it my fault either. It's just a realistic approach. In some countries the risk of being raped can be increased by not wearing a veil, in some by wearing a miniskirt. Take for example the popular tourist destination in Bulgaria, the Golden Sands, there is a major problem with sexual harrasment, acknowledging the risks is realism. That either doesn't make it anymore acceptable though. Especially since drinking a lot of alcohol and wearing "sexy clothes" is a norm in such parties like in this case. Quote:
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Re: Steubenville rape case Of course a girl's behaviour can be a factor in the cause of rape. But other than that it bears on whether consent was or was not given that sort of thing has no place in a courtroom. IIRC studies show that girls who dress more modestly are more likely to get raped because it's seen as a sign of shyness and rapists tend to be looking for people who won't fight back anyway. So claiming that a girl's a bit of a slapper is just. Woosh. |
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The problem isn't that these questions weren't being asked. They were. The problem is that there was evidence to show that this was not a random attack and was in fact planned by the attackers. Instead of taking the young girl's claims seriously the community discouraged it because they wanted to keep the image of the team intact. Even as it became obvious she wasn't lying about what happened to her, they kept attacking her. The media didn't treat her sympathetically, and even accidentally leaked her name when media is supposed to protect the name of the rape victim. This set her up for attacks across the country. Quote:
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Re: Steubenville rape case If it would have stopped her getting raped, it does matter. If it's good advice on how not to get raped, then it should be shouted from the treetops. Provided that it's reasonable and effective. People shouldn't have to live in fear. But we lock our doors at night. There are some people, who you've histories with, and their friends that you simply do not go somewhere alone with, or ... anyone who reacts to frustration with anger and violence for instance. There are kinds of people who you do not make yourself vulnerable to. That's not the same as having no social life mind, which isn't reasonable, nor is it the same as living in constant fear. And if you are going to go out with people like that, then you should at least take some sensible safety precautions: like not accepting drinks, having check in times with people you trust, making sure people know where you are and with who. None of which excuses the actions of these disgusting... creatures... that did this to her. But I don't think he intended to. It does seem like that I admit, because the only time a lot of people venture any opinions on how to prevent rape is when someone's raped and that makes it look like they're just saying it to let the rapists off the hook. You know? It's bad advice given at the worst possible time, when someone's at their lowest. It's reasonable to feel something along the lines of: Where was your advice when it could have done someone any good? And why is your advice so bad if you care at all? If you cared, you'd do your homework and spread it around at other times than just when it was in the news. So, it does seem a lot like an excuse. But then you think that people might not realise that not getting raped has any complexity at all if they've done absolutely no homework. Lots of people don't seem to have anything to be afraid of, so maybe that's just how reality looks to them. Maybe the social implications of avoiding rape really seem the same as the social implications of locking your door at night from a certain point of view. Looking at the pictures on that site is really... it just makes me unspeakably angry. There's some disgusting stuff in this world. A few years for this sort of organised rape isn't anywhere near enough, and not nearly enough people have been charged. The police let the girl down in their investigation, (whether through corruption or incompetence,) her parents let her down via failing to forewarn her appropriately and arm her with more maturity. The boys, the school, the community that was trying to keep the image of the team together; hell, I'm not even going to talk about those, things. Everyone who should have been looking out for a child let her down. Maybe we can move this in a more constructive direction though. If people honestly do believe that the victim, in a non-excusing the crime way, shares some of the responsibility for the event, then it seems like there's a lot of low-hanging fruit in publishing useful anti-rape advice rather than talking about the girl being drunk or dressing up provocatively.: If you don't want to get raped, what can you reasonably do to avoid a situation like this? Something I and my sister were told when we first started going out drinking was: If a drink's been out of your sight, at all, just don't touch it. I do wonder sometimes, whether if more girls had better parents and got advice like that and kept up with their kids social lives, and we were told more about who to trust and why, and it was emphasised more that you do not go anywhere with people you do not trust. Whether there'd be a lot less of this sort of shit. |
Re: Steubenville rape case Well that would imply a responsibility on the parents' part. Who the hell ever heard of that? |
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Re: Steubenville rape case Well...I don't really want to talk in great detail about it, but let's just say a family member tried dating a family friend who was more traditionally religious than we were and...yeah. It didn't work out so well. Oh, we're still friends (in a platonic sense), but it's not the same. My parents have a deep-seated sort of resentment for the whole thing, unsurprisingly. Ahh...well...life goes on I suppose. |
Re: Steubenville rape case Of course it does. And while we're talking about such grim subjects everything can seem a bit hopeless. But it's worth remembering that there's icecream, and the laughter of children, and good books and friends, walks in the park with warm sunlight on your skin, and a generally softer side to the world. It's really not a great idea spending a lot of time talking on this sort of incredible emotive subject with any sort of regularity I think. Not unless you have the ability to emotionally isolate yourself from it and look at it as a problem or you're actively involving yourself in fixing the issue. Otherwise you may well make yourself miserable for no good reason. It's the sort of discussion you have to ration your coping resources for. That's one of the reasons I tend to resort to snark/humour when things seem particularly depressing. I suspect it's one of the reasons that some people's response to tragedies tends to be to try to excuse it where they can actually. The world is less horrible if it's one silly girl rather than a rape culture. I'm sorry someone you know had to go through anything like that. |
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BTW, "jocks" would be the best word. "Jockey" refers to horse racers. So, what're the lessons to take away from this? 1. Assume, as a female, you will be raped. 2. Assume, if you're a male football star, that you can rape as you please, and both the shitty town that revolves around your success and the national media will have your back. I mean, c'mon, it's not like women are people or anything! ;r |
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You can even see it in animals: packs of young males corralling the female away from others so that they've got her to themselves. It's not like the pattern of behaviour is unprecedented as a danger signal. It's not like all situations and all classmates are the same. Quote:
It would be better if there were fewer rapists around, but heading off the whole lot under the heading of it shouldn't be true doesn't make it not true. There are some situations that people should be scared of. Because they're legitimately scary. If you can become scared more productively, of the right things, then that's an improvement. Fear helps keep you alive and safe, if you know what to be afraid of. Though ideally you shouldn't have to be scared of anything, that's not the world we live in. And people admitting to fear of being raped are not necessarily unjustifiably paranoid as you seem to suggest. |
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Re: Steubenville rape case Hang Them (the rapists). Promising lives, yeah sure. More excuses for them to go and recommit the crime in a more popular role. Quote:
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Most of the research I've seen supporting the idea that provocative dress leads to a higher chance of rape does so via inference from the idea that getting normal males to rate female attractiveness necessarily correlates with their chance of being raped. But if rapists are cowards who select their victims based on their feeling that they can get away from it that wouldn't hold. I believe the study I'm referring to is: Chen Shen, Study: From Attribution and Thought-Process Theory to Rape-Shield Laws: The Meanings of Victim’s Appearance in Rape Trials, 5 J. L. & FAM. STUD. 435, 447 (2003) Which I don't think is available to the public without paying. However, unless you believe that clothing is a strong factor, and I think you can find enough evidence fairly quickly to suggest that whatever the direction of the effect the effect itself isn't particularly pronounced, I've spent about an hour and a half trying to track down the relevant info. Since there are things like fighting back, keeping an eye on your drink, not going places with people you don't trust, learning to trust correctly; I think that's probably a reasonable investment. There's lower-hanging fruit, in other words. |
Re: Steubenville rape case I have to leave for work very shortly, so I've not got the time to write out a lengthy reply (which, in my opinion, is needed). ;) I'll update this later, or add another post, whichever. |
Re: Steubenville rape case This is an op/ed about it but I think it is a relevant account, as the circumstances of her experience was similar to this one. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/23/op...y-of-rape.html Spoiler: |
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As for the replies to my earlier post; yeah the clothing part is quite a bit more silly, but criticism of passing out is not. I have an acquaintance who found a person who had passed out at temperature -25 C (-14 F), you can pretty much say he saved his life. Passing out means you can get killed, abused or robbed. If we're keen on changing culture, how about that drinking so much alcohol that you pass out is not cool. |
Re: Steubenville rape case I find it hard to believe that's common as compared to date rape drugs. Similarly I find it hard to believe that anyone doesn't know what rape is. Did she consent? We can quibble about the semantics of quite how enthusiastically she consented and quite how clear consent has to be but there are very clear cases where she didn't. I don't believe that an 18 year old fucking an unconscious girl does not know that to do so is wrong. I don't credit it, I don't believe it - it's an excuse: play stupid. As far as changing culture goes: There's a very self-centred entitlement culture in much of the West. It's not particularly surprising that these sorts of rape cases tend to go along with small tight-nit groups of high-status individuals who have been led to believe that they can have what they want and do what they like. Nor that sociopaths tend to have extremely high self-esteem. The people who did this didn't expect anything to come back to them. They didn't even try to hide what they'd done really, not until the police came knocking. And even then arguably the police defended them, either by negligence or collusion. You cannot raise people to think they're god and then be surprised when they fuck the mortals. There needs to be a culture that idolises people less and promotes a sense of community based upon teamwork and fair and immediate consequences. Rape and murder and so on seem to large extents manifestations of extremely low social cohesion; of people not having an emotional or pragmatic stake in one another's wellbeing. |
Re: Steubenville rape case No matter what the society is, you cannot stop some individuals from succumbing to their hormones and offending others. After they have done this, you can either: 1 Take a mental health status of such people [like the murder cases] and let them off to a 6 months sentence in a mental asylum where they will prove their sanity and walk out soon. 2 Send them off to life imprisonment, in which case there will be an uproar from the media and human rights organisations about giving such a 'brutal' sentence for such a 'mild' crime. 3 Send them to the electric chair/gas chamber, in which case there will be criticism that the justice department is acting with revenge and the families of murder victims will also demand their criminals to be put to death sentence. Its a bone in the stork's throat. You can't gulp it down and you can't regurgitate it. |
Re: Steubenville rape case Even if you assume that some people are going to offend whatever you do, people will offend at different rates. And those are far from the only options available for addressing offences that do occur. |
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