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Kalessin March 19th, 2013 09:36 PM

Re: Steubenville rape case
 
Of course it does. And while we're talking about such grim subjects everything can seem a bit hopeless. But it's worth remembering that there's icecream, and the laughter of children, and good books and friends, walks in the park with warm sunlight on your skin, and a generally softer side to the world.

It's really not a great idea spending a lot of time talking on this sort of incredible emotive subject with any sort of regularity I think. Not unless you have the ability to emotionally isolate yourself from it and look at it as a problem or you're actively involving yourself in fixing the issue. Otherwise you may well make yourself miserable for no good reason. It's the sort of discussion you have to ration your coping resources for.

That's one of the reasons I tend to resort to snark/humour when things seem particularly depressing. I suspect it's one of the reasons that some people's response to tragedies tends to be to try to excuse it where they can actually. The world is less horrible if it's one silly girl rather than a rape culture.

I'm sorry someone you know had to go through anything like that.

Crazy Wolf March 19th, 2013 09:57 PM

Re: Steubenville rape case
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikupsoni (Post 5688490)
It is rather dangerous if they wouldn't ask any questions in case of rapes. A case from this year is that a woman falsely accused men of rape 11 times.

Though in this case, if I recall correctly, they had some photos and a video so it was rather clear?

Exactly. Ask all the fucking questions you want. In this case, however, you've got a metric fuckton of evidence against the rapists. This wasn't any "he said, she said" issue. The fact that only two guys got jail time, and only one and two years, respectively, seems a grievous miscarriage of justice.
Quote:

...Regarding the point whether the victim's actions can be a factor in a rape, certainly they can be. Though saying that alout will create a hysterical shitstorm. Drinking yourself unconscious is a major factor in possibly causing some problems, whether it's passing out outside during winter and dying, or getting abused like this.
Being drunk can cause impaired consent, which is generally regarded as not consent. Being drugged unconscious cannot be construed as consent.
Quote:

If I keep my wallet in my trousers' back pocket, that can increase the risk of it being robbed, though of course it doesn't make it my fault either. It's just a realistic approach. In some countries the risk of being raped can be increased by not wearing a veil, in some by wearing a miniskirt. Take for example the popular tourist destination in Bulgaria, the Golden Sands, there is a major problem with sexual harrasment, acknowledging the risks is realism. That either doesn't make it anymore acceptable though. Especially since drinking a lot of alcohol and wearing "sexy clothes" is a norm in such parties like in this case.
She was with her peers and ostensibly friends. Would you say that it is reasonable to expect to be raped by your classmates? Because saying that out loud sounds pretty fucking paranoid, right? Like, even if it is true, it really shouldn't be, and we should do everything we can to change that?

Quote:

...I'm more interested in how the community felt about them because they're athletes. I know the American stereoptype of 'jockeys' and general respect for athletes like free university degrees that would be a ridiculous idea in most of Europe.
It is fascinating in a sick way.
BTW, "jocks" would be the best word. "Jockey" refers to horse racers.



So, what're the lessons to take away from this?


1. Assume, as a female, you will be raped.

2. Assume, if you're a male football star, that you can rape as you please, and both the shitty town that revolves around your success and the national media will have your back. I mean, c'mon, it's not like women are people or anything! ;r

Kalessin March 19th, 2013 10:31 PM

Re: Steubenville rape case
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Wolf (Post 5688741)
She was with her peers and ostensibly friends. Would you say that it is reasonable to expect to be raped by your classmates?

That depends on which classmates you're talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Wolf (Post 5688741)
Because saying that out loud sounds pretty fucking paranoid, right?

No, under some conditions it sound quite sensible. You're putting all classmates in one group. If your classmate is known to be part of a group called the Rape Crew, you're not paranoid to expect to be raped by him. If your classmate wants to take you off with a group of his male friends to his coaches house away from people who aren't part of their in group, you're not paranoid to be massively cautious about it.

You can even see it in animals: packs of young males corralling the female away from others so that they've got her to themselves. It's not like the pattern of behaviour is unprecedented as a danger signal.

It's not like all situations and all classmates are the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Wolf (Post 5688741)
Like, even if it is true, it really shouldn't be, and we should do everything we can to change that?

The most obvious thing you can do to change it is just to kill all the men. You wouldn't do that but hopefully you get the idea. What causes someone to become a rapist is one of these horribly complex issue of culture where there are lots of things you can do that are potentially going to make it worse. The last thing anyone needs is going to be an attitude of something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do it.

It would be better if there were fewer rapists around, but heading off the whole lot under the heading of it shouldn't be true doesn't make it not true. There are some situations that people should be scared of. Because they're legitimately scary. If you can become scared more productively, of the right things, then that's an improvement. Fear helps keep you alive and safe, if you know what to be afraid of.

Though ideally you shouldn't have to be scared of anything, that's not the world we live in. And people admitting to fear of being raped are not necessarily unjustifiably paranoid as you seem to suggest.

Adrian Ţepeş March 19th, 2013 11:20 PM

Re: Steubenville rape case
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Wolf (Post 5688741)
Exactly. Ask all the fucking questions you want. In this case, however, you've got a metric fuckton of evidence against the rapists. This wasn't any "he said, she said" issue. The fact that only two guys got jail time, and only one and two years, respectively, seems a grievous miscarriage of justice.

2. Assume, if you're a male football star, that you can rape as you please, and both the shitty town that revolves around your success and the national media will have your back. I mean, c'mon, it's not like women are people or anything! ;r

I remember during one class, the instructor mentioned how it's a fact (and from we read in the news, I'm inclined to agree), that the better you look (physically or career-wise), you're going to get a lighter sentence than someone who "seems" dangerous.

Flash525 March 20th, 2013 05:00 AM

Re: Steubenville rape case
 
Hang Them (the rapists). Promising lives, yeah sure. More excuses for them to go and recommit the crime in a more popular role.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admiral Antilles (Post 5688454)
Who gives a shit? They raped someone. They deserve what they get because they committed a CRIME. What did they expect the judge to do, let them off on community service?!

Quoted for truth. A year seems awfully lax in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalessin (Post 5688470)
Everyone knows that if you're smart or athletic, you can do whatever you want and treat plebs however you please.

Ain't that the truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalessin (Post 5688505)
Of course a girl's behaviour can be a factor in the cause of rape. But other than that it bears on whether consent was or was not given that sort of thing has no place in a courtroom.

Whether she was drunk or not I think is somewhat irrelevant. If both parties were drunk (and there is proof of such) then yeah, it can be debated, but if it was just the girl that was drunk, then these football players should have known better than to take advantage. It's really that simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalessin (Post 5688505)
IIRC studies show that girls who dress more modestly are more likely to get raped because it's seen as a sign of shyness and rapists tend to be looking for people who won't fight back anyway. So claiming that a girl's a bit of a slapper is just. Woosh.

I have a hard time believing that to be honest.

Kalessin March 20th, 2013 06:20 AM

Re: Steubenville rape case
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash525 (Post 5688770)
Whether she was drunk or not I think is somewhat irrelevant. If both parties were drunk (and there is proof of such) then yeah, it can be debated, but if it was just the girl that was drunk, then these football players should have known better than to take advantage. It's really that simple.

I have a hard time believing that to be honest.

I read it some time ago and can't find the text of the study off hand. There doesn't appear to be a great deal of conclusive evidence for either position, which suggests to me that even if there is an effect it would be incredibly weak.

Most of the research I've seen supporting the idea that provocative dress leads to a higher chance of rape does so via inference from the idea that getting normal males to rate female attractiveness necessarily correlates with their chance of being raped. But if rapists are cowards who select their victims based on their feeling that they can get away from it that wouldn't hold.

I believe the study I'm referring to is:

Chen Shen, Study: From Attribution and Thought-Process Theory to Rape-Shield Laws: The Meanings of Victim’s Appearance in Rape Trials, 5 J. L. & FAM. STUD. 435, 447 (2003)

Which I don't think is available to the public without paying.

However, unless you believe that clothing is a strong factor, and I think you can find enough evidence fairly quickly to suggest that whatever the direction of the effect the effect itself isn't particularly pronounced, I've spent about an hour and a half trying to track down the relevant info. Since there are things like fighting back, keeping an eye on your drink, not going places with people you don't trust, learning to trust correctly; I think that's probably a reasonable investment. There's lower-hanging fruit, in other words.

Flash525 March 20th, 2013 06:25 AM

Re: Steubenville rape case
 
I have to leave for work very shortly, so I've not got the time to write out a lengthy reply (which, in my opinion, is needed). ;) I'll update this later, or add another post, whichever.

Commissar MercZ March 23rd, 2013 10:20 AM

Re: Steubenville rape case
 
This is an op/ed about it but I think it is a relevant account, as the circumstances of her experience was similar to this one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/23/op...y-of-rape.html
Spoiler:

March 22, 2013
Waking Up to the Enduring Memory of Rape
By EMILY YELLIN

Memphis

THIS is what I know. When I was 16, after most everybody had left a big, alcohol-fueled party in a hotel suite, I passed out drunk. Then, a star football player at my Memphis high school picked me up off the floor, carried me to the bed and raped me. His girlfriend and one other male classmate were also in the room at the time. They did not stop him.

That was three decades ago. I don’t bring it up much. But it still comes up sometimes, in my head, anyway. Especially when I hear of a highly publicized rape, like the recent one in Steubenville, Ohio.

I do my best to block out those news accounts, and the cavalier talk and portrayal of rape in movies, on TV, online and in music. It is not because I have not come to terms with what happened to me, but because I have — slowly and privately. I feel frustrated and marginalized when I see how out of touch and ignorant our culture is about what rape really is and its effects. So it seems easier to try to be unconscious of all that, as I was when the whole thing first happened.

But the Steubenville case is so similar to my story that it has been more difficult than usual to ignore the news this time. When the verdict came down, convicting two football players of raping an unconscious 16-year-old girl, I realized once again, from reports on TV and comments online, that most people tend to do what I did for decades: numb ourselves to the effects of rape. We deny its impact, rage if we ever have to confront what it really is, and feel annoyed that it doesn’t just go away. It all seems easier than facing rape down. In the long run though, it isn’t.

Until now, I never wanted to write about what had happened to me for all the world to see. But I know that keeping quiet about it is part of why stories like mine continue to be so common. For every documented rape case, I know there are hundreds more like mine that remain off the record. And so we all remain unconscious about the true nature and extent of rape in our society.

Like the girl in Steubenville, I don’t recall much about the attack. The only thing I remember clearly is the next morning, when the football player’s girlfriend gently nudged me from sleep. She was fully dressed and standing by the bed. She had apparently slept on the floor all night. I was lying next to him with no clothes on. He was sound asleep. The other guy was asleep in a chair.

She gathered my clothes for me, helped me get dressed, and we slipped out the door without waking the two boys.

When we got in her car, I said: “I just have one question: What was I doing in bed with your boyfriend?” She said, “I was going to ask you the same question.” I said I didn’t know, and she said she didn’t, either. There was not much emotion between us, just a sisterly kindness, and we were pretty quiet during the rest of the ride. We never spoke of it again.

Six months later, the other guy told me more. He said he and the girlfriend had huddled on the floor at the opposite end of the room as it happened, not knowing what to do, and didn’t feel that they could stop the guy, because he was bigger and stronger than us all. He also told me that the football player said he was scared the next morning when the two of them woke up. I didn’t understand why he would be.

In fact, I didn’t even realize it was rape until four years later, when I was 20, and told the story to a loving boyfriend in college. He helped me see that I had been sexually assaulted, and was there for me as I began to face the truth.

I told some friends after that, but I did not tell my parents about it until I was 27. I didn’t set out to tell them. But one night, they unknowingly kept insisting that the other guy in the room during the rape had been in love with me. He went to Yale, and he had been my boyfriend for three weeks when I was in seventh grade, until I dumped him for his better-looking little brother. My parents always really liked him. But my college boyfriend had helped me see that that guy was not my friend. So when my parents brought the guy up again as someone whom I should consider romantically, I told them the story of the rape. They never mentioned him again.

I did not tell any of my three older brothers until well into my 30s, which is when I finally got some good counseling for the effects. That is also when I began to get my share of unhelpful reactions, like the therapist who dismissed me, saying it wasn’t “real rape” and was so long ago that I should be over it by now.

I never reported the crime. Laws supporting someone who was raped were less common back then. And like many women and girls who have been raped, before and since, I knew I would have been blamed, ridiculed and even worse in court, and in public for being drunk, and for whatever else could be used to make it appear to be my fault. That’s how it went in Steubenville, and was amplified when graphic pictures of the attack were posted online. Brutal tweets mocked the girl’s character. And online death threats were directed at her after the verdict.

I found some power and peace in never doing anything much about what happened. In forgetting.

But I don’t forget. Every once in a while, I remember more. At some point, I had a flashback of his being on top of me, and of my saying no, and of trying to push him off me.

I see on Facebook that he has a wife and two kids — a girl and a boy. I don’t know if he has ever cared to understand what he did that night, or if he did it again when he went on to play football in college. The boys who raped the girl in Steubenville have had to face a measure of justice. The boy who attacked me never will. Unlike for me, it is easy for him to remain unconscious of it all forever, if he so chooses.

I read that one of the witnesses in Steubenville, an 18-year-old teammate, said in court this month that he did not try to stop the attack because he did not realize anything wrong was happening. “I didn’t know exactly what rape was,” he said.

I can relate. I imagine that the other children in that room with me that night can, too. But it is no longer forgivable not to teach young people — and boys and men in particular — exactly what rape is, and not to drill it into their heads that rape is not O.K., ever, even just a little bit.

Being unaware of its effects is not a viable excuse anymore for being clueless about rape, especially if you are a policy maker, journalist, entertainer or athlete, or anyone else who has a public platform. The world has to be safe for those who have been raped to talk about it to anyone, without shame, guilt, blame or fear of being branded by it for life, in the same way we talk about any other violent crime, like robbery or burglary — crimes that happen but do not define your whole being.

I know now. What happened to me that night was a serious, violent crime. I am totally conscious now. But I also want to know: How long will it take for our society to wake up, too — to confront rape fully and to do whatever we have to do to stop it?

Emily Yellin is a journalist and the author, most recently, of “Your Call Is (Not That) Important to Us: Customer Service and What It Reveals About Our World and Our Lives.”

Rikupsoni March 23rd, 2013 12:36 PM

Re: Steubenville rape case
 
Quote:

I do my best to block out those news accounts, and the cavalier talk and portrayal of rape in movies, on TV, online and in music. It is not because I have not come to terms with what happened to me, but because I have — slowly and privately. I feel frustrated and marginalized when I see how out of touch and ignorant our culture is about what rape really is and its effects. So it seems easier to try to be unconscious of all that, as I was when the whole thing first happened.
Hmm, even music lyrics and movies generally have cavalier talk about rape? I would like to be pointed out even one rape-friendly song, well, unless hardcore punk doesn't count. Quite a feminist buffoon viewpoint, being so obsessed with "traditional" gender roles and sex that you have to bring up inanite interpretations how rape culture is everywhere. If you're dating a politically correct feminist, you have to get consent by printing papers beforehand: "Name name, I have the consent to touch your waist. Date: ____ Signature ____". Otherwise it's easy to interpret it as rape, much like those cavalier rape movies.

Quote:

I can relate. I imagine that the other children in that room with me that night can, too. But it is no longer forgivable not to teach young people — and boys and men in particular — exactly what rape is, and not to drill it into their heads that rape is not O.K., ever, even just a little bit.
I do wonder whether rape happens because of that kind of a "rape culture" and whether it's that easy to knock down. So, men rape women just because we're so tolerant on it? So do we also have a murder culture? If we would teach young people that murdering people is not O.K., ever, murders wouldn't happen? That's ridiculous.

As for the replies to my earlier post; yeah the clothing part is quite a bit more silly, but criticism of passing out is not. I have an acquaintance who found a person who had passed out at temperature -25 C (-14 F), you can pretty much say he saved his life. Passing out means you can get killed, abused or robbed. If we're keen on changing culture, how about that drinking so much alcohol that you pass out is not cool.

Kalessin March 23rd, 2013 12:52 PM

Re: Steubenville rape case
 
I find it hard to believe that's common as compared to date rape drugs. Similarly I find it hard to believe that anyone doesn't know what rape is. Did she consent? We can quibble about the semantics of quite how enthusiastically she consented and quite how clear consent has to be but there are very clear cases where she didn't. I don't believe that an 18 year old fucking an unconscious girl does not know that to do so is wrong. I don't credit it, I don't believe it - it's an excuse: play stupid.

As far as changing culture goes: There's a very self-centred entitlement culture in much of the West. It's not particularly surprising that these sorts of rape cases tend to go along with small tight-nit groups of high-status individuals who have been led to believe that they can have what they want and do what they like. Nor that sociopaths tend to have extremely high self-esteem. The people who did this didn't expect anything to come back to them. They didn't even try to hide what they'd done really, not until the police came knocking. And even then arguably the police defended them, either by negligence or collusion.

You cannot raise people to think they're god and then be surprised when they fuck the mortals.

There needs to be a culture that idolises people less and promotes a sense of community based upon teamwork and fair and immediate consequences. Rape and murder and so on seem to large extents manifestations of extremely low social cohesion; of people not having an emotional or pragmatic stake in one another's wellbeing.


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