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Re: Supreme Court considering gay marriage cases Quote:
Second off, I don't keep silent about my own "bigoted" religion- when did I ever say I'm a practicing Muslim anyways?- there's plenty of problems with some clerics who choose to impose terrible views they justify with texts. However I live in this country and I'm going to discuss things that affect me directly here, as opposed to what some random cleric in Saudi Arabia is doing in their country that doesn't affect me. This country bases itself on liberty, and it seems hypocritical to me that this is arbitrarily restricted from LGBT for no real reason beyond making people uncomfortable. It makes me more concerned that often the same people who are for restricting gay marriage often talk about how the government needs to stay out of their "private" affairs, but do not see the issue with that position. I'm guessing what you're referring to is when I call you out on your lumping together all people who refer to themselves as "Muslims" as part of the same nutty fold that follow what ever religious cleric you- or some other part of the peanut gallery- chooses to highlight as representative of the whole religion, regardless of the fact where a particular Muslim comes from or how they have come to their own opinions. That doesn't mean that I'm defending conservative clerics or ignoring their actions, but rather wanting to put a more nuanced view on the region that doesn't owe itself to absolutes and narrow, judgmental position. I could go on every day about how certain evangelical preachers here have supported certain groups in Africa to pass questionable legislation, most infamously the "kill the gays" bill in Uganda. However if all of my threads were just about religion, I'd be a broken record like Sedistix was here always droning on about how all people who aren't atheists are ignorant dickwads and trying to write off the world's problems like that, that we'd solve conflicts if we just didn't have religion to begin with. Finally, I didn't criticize christian values in this thread at all either, so why bring it up? Where did I mention in my original post this was a result of Christians? I don't believe people all think the same, which appears to be what you - there are practicing Christians of many denominations and variations in belief who have come to different positions on social matters. Same matter goes for politics. Here you can find Muslims who are really against any mention of homosexual marriage, while others are indifferent, and some who are in favor. This is not much different from their Christian, Jewish, or Hindu counterparts. Keith Ellison, a practicing Muslim in the US Congress, is one of those in favor of LGBT rights, and in this he joins many of his other fellow Congressmen and woman of different religions (or lack thereof). By your logic, Ellison should be frothing at the mouth against it. Andre Carson is another Congressman who is a practicing muslim, and holds similar positions. Likewise, I'm sure you can find Muslims in this country who are of the opposite position, and who are for it. Just like other citizens. People have different opinions and do not think the same. Crazy concept, right? Some religious groups are in support of gay rights, others are not. However I'm not going to go up to some random person wearing a crucifix and chastise them for "hating gays", because someone told me that all Christians or people of faith are all backwards dickwads. It's idiotic for me to be prejudiced on people like that, and is not a basis on which to build a platform on for change. This is something LGBT activists have learned and is, in part, why acceptance of gay rights has changed significantly in the past decade. This is why, despite what some parts of the bible may or may not say, some people who consider themselves Christian have no problem with gay marriage, because, as shocking as it may sound to you, people don't form their opinions completely on one source. "Traditional values" aren't eroded by gay marriage and this position seems to come from the fact that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice as opposed to having biological basis. Religion has been used as a bastion for moral panics and perceived threats to the future generations as have things like music, movies, games, books, what ever as a slippery slope that'll doom the future. In each of these cases it has always proven to be overreaction in hindsight. I don't know what "traditional values" mean because normal nuclear families aren't necessarily immune from the world's problems. Divorce, domestic violence, troubles raising children, and a whole host of other problems that gay marriage has not caused nor will exacerbate. Moral panic has always been a useful tool to distract from real issues in any country. Quote:
You seem to be conflating mob rule with all democracies. Some countries are more susceptible to it but ideally there safeguards around it. Had civil rights legislation been put to a vote as either a referendum or in state legislatures, it would have unlikely been able to pass, same thing goes for the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments. |
Re: Supreme Court considering gay marriage cases Thanks for the extensive reply. I'm not sorry for my harsh attitude towards Islam or its adherents, as I don't think it deserves any special protection and should be attacked just like Christianity by, if you will "militant," Internet atheists. In my opinion there are even more reasons that. You know how the Netherlands was the first country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage in 2001 and it can be described as a very liberal country. It just happens that it has changed: Moroccan Muslim immigrant bigots are assaulting homosexuals in broad daylight in the Netherlands these days and the statistics of anti-gay violence have multiplied. No one is taking it seriously, because it's not good to get branded as Islamophobic and Islam needs special protection unlike every other religion. US conservatives are mostly Christians, it has to do with religion. That's why I think it's hypocritical to be a pro-Islam anti-conservative on the basis of their religious traditions. Since you're keen on protecting Islamic policies on the basis that we can't be judgmental, it just makes me wonder what Islamic community is tolerant towards homosexuals. There's just no way around it that Islam is awful towards homosexuals. Not talking about single US Muslim politicians, but the popular religious currents. It's okay to say that aloud, no need to be denialist. |
Re: Supreme Court considering gay marriage cases Quote:
By the way if you want to use the Bible as a reference as to why homosexuals can't marry, that's fine, go ahead. But in doing so, you must also support genocide, child sacrifice, drowning the Earth, the destruction of cities, and a plethora of other lovely things. If you don't support those things than the integrity of your book is now being questioned. |
Re: Supreme Court considering gay marriage cases Quote:
Anyways, for something actually related to the topic. Hollingsworth v. Perry, which addresses proposition 8, is expected to be heard on March 26th, where both parties will give arguments to the Supreme Court Justices. Perry refers to the name of one of the plaintiffs who had tried to get a marriage certificate after she got married to her partner, while Hollingsworth is the leader of one of the groups that supported Proposition 8 after California's AG chose not to represent California citing he believed Prop 8 was unconstitutional. The following day on March 27th, the parties in US v Windsor will give their case on DOMA. Windsor refers to the name of a woman who got married to her partner in Canada. After her partner died in 2009, she was required to pay estate tax from things she inherited from her partner. As DOMA does not recognize a same-sex marriage, she could have not been waived on paying the federal tax. The United States will be represented by Holder on behalf of the Department of Justice, and will focus on arguing that section three of DOMA, which defines marriage only as a union between a man and woman, as unconstitutional. |
Re: Supreme Court considering gay marriage cases Today was the opening arguments for the Proposition 8 case. Tomorrow will cover DOMA. There hasn't been attention on one or the other opening arguments which tells me that neither gave a weak case. Much like the healthcare law which was heard around the same time last year, a ruling will come in June. It'll come down to a 5-4 vote here probably, so what the "swing" vote Judge, Kennedy, reacts to the case will be watched carefully. Today he seemed to be more cautious, pointing out the Supreme Court's potential ramifications. Supreme Court wary of broad gay marriage ruling | Reuters Transcript if you want to look at the whole thing, it was 80 minutes for today. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ript.html?_r=0 |
Re: Supreme Court considering gay marriage cases Today the court heard the case for DOMA, with opening arguments and questioning taking 2 hours. This time around the opinion of the majority of the judges (and again, by this I mean five) seemed to be against it, though they question if it's a legitimate case to be brought before the court as the representatives for DOMA come from the House of Representatives, rather than the government as a whole. Still, unlike the ambiguity of the last hearing, this time around it seems more certain that the court does not believe the provisions of DOMA barring certain benefits to same-sex married couples are constitutional. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/28/us...riage-act.html Spoiler: |
Re: Supreme Court considering gay marriage cases So in a summary how is the whole thing going? |
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