What I was up to last night

[Adrian Ţepeş]

So yeah, last night I really couldn't sleep at all and had a series of interesting dreams afterwards that somehow were all interconnected. I even dreamed that I was Batman.

So anyways, I was thinking of solutions to problems in humanity. Here's one such probable solution:

Originally Posted by Adrian Tepes

I have a great idea:

Ok, basically, a sterilization compound (released in the atmosphere, naturally) so as to prevent as much breeding as possible. Now, the trick is, how to keep going without going extinct. Stage two would involve (after developing a cure, and before releasing the compound) selling the cure to a company and enforce selective requirements on who can obtain it. So we solve quite a bit: less stupid and/or underpaid individuals reproducing, less teen pregnancy, fewer abortions (except for...well the giant one ), and smarter kids (based on something like the WAIS test, but I suppose we do have to define intelligence a bit more than we already have.)

My entire plan was a bit more elaborate when I thought it up last night when I couldn't sleep after watching Rifftrax

Originally Posted by Nemmerle

Practical difficulties of actually creating the stuff aside: How would you ensure that the company distributed the cure according to your criteria and retained control of the cure without those around them just killing them all and taking it for themselves? - and how would you ensure that others didn't make their own cure?

Originally Posted by Adrian Tepes

Those are my primary concerns as well. It's hard to say if a company would actually adhere to my standards, short of having a legal document drafted that said it would be unlawful to sell it otherwise. Of course, there's always a loophole somewhere, and if people want something badly enough, they'll find a way.

As for others developing the cure, well...I'm actually not as worried about that. I mean, sure I could have a patent on it, but with an entire generation of people being unable to breed without first seeking out the cure, I've ensured at least a grand number of new breeding parameters for years to come. Not to mention, it's better than just dropping nuclear bombs; you can still have sex and live and enjoy your life, you just can't have children.

Either way, it'll stir up something huge

Of course, the obvious problem is creating the compound and releasing it without first being arrested or killed xD

But I'm working out the kinks, so any input is helpful

[Mr. Matt]

Nature has a way of balancing itself. Humans on Earth were supposedly overpopulated to an unsustainable degree over a century ago according to one British economist (the name escapes me, but his first name was 'Matthew', which is possibly why I remember him saying it - we Matthews have a genetic memory, you see). We are supposedly overpopulated to an unsustainable degree now, too. Technology will continue to advance and sustain an ever-larger population until we can be sustained no longer, at which point a crisis will occur and wipe out a large chunk of our species.

There is no artificial cure for this problem, as we are causing it through artificial means. Any attempt to try would be tyrannical, equatable to eugenics, and would fail.

Incidentally, your dream invented the genophage.

[Adrian Ţepeş]

Originally Posted by Mr. Matt

There is no artificial cure for this problem, as we are causing it through artificial means.

I suppose that's true. I remember George Carlin talked a bit about it in regards to safety devices

But I don't really look at it as a cure; more or less a way to increase the amount of genetically smarter individuals with the hope of a better population. So, yes, it is pretty much eugenics and Social Darwinism, just without the massive genocide (which, I guess you could debate what is genocide in regards to killing off potential for life).

[Mr. Matt]

And who gets to decide who is 'smart' enough to reproduce? And where does the nature v nurture argument factor in? I consider myself to be smarter than my parents, and other people are dumber than their parents. Do genetics play a part significant enough to neuter large swathes of the population?

[Adrian Ţepeş]

Originally Posted by Mr. Matt

And who gets to decide who is 'smart' enough to reproduce? And where does the nature v nurture argument factor in? I consider myself to be smarter than my parents, and other people are dumber than their parents. Do genetics play a part significant enough to neuter large swathes of the population?

Well, I should say it wouldn't be solely on a basis off "smarts", but a variety of factors: economic status, job status, ability to hold a job, quite a few things. As far as who; well, probably would be up to a team of expert intelligence analysts (not the CIA kind). They don't necessarily have to be smarter than their parents, just smart enough. Like I said in the OP, the WAIS (Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale) seems (for now) like a half-decent way to measure the potential for a smart kid, sans any birth defects.

Nature vs Nurture is the kicker though, in't it? While the answer to the last question (IMO) is yes, the education system (in this country at least) is insufficient and inefficient. But it would need to be revised anyway, seeing as how far fewer people would be attending. I think we could probably get away with enough people to close down the public schools and let the private schools run the show. Or screw the private schools, let the charter schools have a say too.

Either way, the projected level of quality of the average parent (who will also be screened for mental stability) would be assumed to be appropriate for a good-nurtured upbringing for the child.

[Mr. Matt]

I'm glad to know that you think I shouldn't reproduce!

In these troubled economic times, judging somebody based on their position within society is inherently wrong. I used to have a fairly prestigious job, and the fact that I lost it thanks to the bankers gambling our money away shouldn't mean that I be sterilised (although, for the record, I hate children and would be thankful if you did).

The sort of people you're talking about employing in this 'Committee of Sterilisation' are the sorts of people who would condemn virtually everybody on this forum to a life of childlessness. And whatever standard you measure 'smart potential' against is likely to be discredited in an era when we don't truly understand where intelligence really comes from.

So far, the only evidence we have that smart parents produce smart children is circumstantial at best. Generally, smart parents tend to be affluent parents who can afford to send their children to properly decent institutions of education. Meanwhile, we have countless annecdotes about dumbass parents from working class backgrounds who raise children who go on to take over the world, along with contradictory anecdotes about smart, affluent parents who raise complete dumbasses - Paris Hilton, for example.

There is no fair way to try and enforce a policy of eugenics, and everybody who has tried has been labelled an ignorant tyrant.

[Adrian Ţepeş]

Originally Posted by Mr. Matt

I'm glad to know that you think I shouldn't reproduce!

I'm glad that you're glad. If only more people were like you

Originally Posted by Mr. Matt

In these troubled economic times, judging somebody based on their position within society is inherently wrong.

Hardly. Why would you want those who couldn't afford to produce offspring when they can barely support themselves? And all the irresponsible people can fuck as they please without fear of unplanned pregnancy.

I used to have a fairly prestigious job, and the fact that I lost it thanks to the bankers gambling our money away shouldn't mean that I be sterilised (although, for the record, I hate children and would be thankful if you did).

So you have the capability. And in a world where the current crop of workers with reasonable human capital will obviously inevitably die out soon, and the numbers of people you'll have afterwards will diminish. I think we can find a spot for you somewhere

Originally Posted by Mr. Matt

The sort of people you're talking about employing in this 'Committee of Sterilisation' are the sorts of people who would condemn virtually everybody on this forum to a life of childlessness.

I don't know everybody on this forum, so I can't make the call at this time. That's what the intelligence analysts are for.

Originally Posted by Mr. Matt

And whatever standard you measure 'smart potential' against is likely to be discredited in an era when we don't truly understand where intelligence really comes from.

Irrelevant, we're likely never to. That doesn't mean we can't use what we've got to push for a better society than the previous one, quicker than if we let nature take its toll.

Originally Posted by Mr. Matt

So far, the only evidence we have that smart parents produce smart children is circumstantial at best. Generally, smart parents tend to be affluent parents who can afford to send their children to properly decent institutions of education.

So, you're smart if you're rich enough? Surely there are plenty of other people like yourself who make a claim to a certain level of intelligence that were also fucked over because of someone higher up or because of unfavorable circumstances.

Originally Posted by Mr. Matt

Meanwhile, we have countless annecdotes about dumbass parents from working class backgrounds who raise children who go on to take over the world, along with contradictory anecdotes about smart, affluent parents who raise complete dumbasses - Paris Hilton, for example.

Are you so sure they're smart? Maybe experienced, or lucky, but not all of them are smart. You can easily have geniuses with no ambition and stupid people with million-dollar paychecks. So, it works both ways. The point I'm pushing for is a society with a specific standard. Making the world less polluted with the stupid ones.

Originally Posted by Mr. Matt

There is no fair way to try and enforce a policy of eugenics, and everybody who has tried has been labelled an ignorant tyrant.

Everyone? What if it does what I intended?

And no one ever said life is fair.

[Nemmerle]

Originally Posted by Adrian Ţepeş

Those are my primary concerns as well. It's hard to say if a company would actually adhere to my standards, short of having a legal document drafted that said it would be unlawful to sell it otherwise. Of course, there's always a loophole somewhere, and if people want something badly enough, they'll find a way.

Well, contracts pertaining to illegal activities are ruled unenforceable most of the time. And I'm fairly sure that sterilising people against their will would count.

Just the same ... There's no legal document that's going to hold people from their reproduction. Where are you going to get a court and jury to enforce your contract? All you people who wouldn't be able to reproduce without my say so, rule in my favour....

Not that it'd ever get to court. Chances are you'd just be dragged out into the streets and beaten to death.

Originally Posted by Adrian Ţepeş

As for others developing the cure, well...I'm actually not as worried about that. I mean, sure I could have a patent on it, but with an entire generation of people being unable to breed without first seeking out the cure, I've ensured at least a grand number of new breeding parameters for years to come. Not to mention, it's better than just dropping nuclear bombs; you can still have sex and live and enjoy your life, you just can't have children.

People would just sell them the cure, there'd be government assistance programs for those who couldn't afford it, only a few of them would need to seek it out.

You could do it to countries that didn't have a lot of money, and that no-one really cared about. But the first world wouldn't stand for it.

[Adrian Ţepeş]

Originally Posted by Nemmerle

Well, contracts pertaining to illegal activities are ruled unenforceable most of the time. And I'm fairly sure that sterilising people against their will would count.

The contract wouldn't be drafted until after the compound had already been released and the cure weren't made known until a few months after (provided someone doesn't find one of their own.) It is a bit of a risk, yes.

Originally Posted by Nemmerle

Just the same ... There's no legal document that's going to hold people from their reproduction.

I believe I said that.

Originally Posted by Nemmerle

Where are you going to get a court and jury to enforce your contract? All you people who wouldn't be able to reproduce without my say so, rule in my favour....

It's either that, or look to someone else for the cure. Give that I already know everything about it and have the cure, I don't see any other option.

Originally Posted by Nemmerle

Not that it'd ever get to court. Chances are you'd just be dragged out into the streets and beaten to death.

Assuming they ever found out. Even if they did, it wouldn't make much difference. And if it were found out that it was me before the document was accepted, I'd simply destroy all data on the cure and the compound and then commit suicide

Originally Posted by Nemmerle

People would just sell them the cure, there'd be government assistance programs for those who couldn't afford it, only a few of them would need to seek it out.

This does pose a problem. Do you have any suggestions?

Originally Posted by Nemmerle

You could do it to countries that didn't have a lot of money, and that no-one really cared about. But the first world wouldn't stand for it.

We'll see.

[Nemmerle]

Originally Posted by Adrian Ţepeş

The contract wouldn't be drafted until after the compound had already been released and the cure weren't made known until a few months after (provided someone doesn't find one of their own.) It is a bit of a risk, yes.

Even if you subsequently drafted a contract it would just be held unenforceable as being obtained under duress or something like that.

Originally Posted by Adrian Ţepeş

Assuming they ever found out. Even if they did, it wouldn't make much difference. And if it were found out that it was me before the document was accepted, I'd simply destroy all data on the cure and the compound and then commit suicide

Human extinction isn't a viable outcome if your desire is to stop humanity going extinct - and if it's not what do you care?

Originally Posted by Adrian Ţepeş

This does pose a problem. Do you have any suggestions?

Not really, no. You need to be incredibly powerful to get something like this put in place. And if you've that sort of political power then you may as well use a solution like China's