So I came across this yesterday, I have not really given this much research but surely this cannot be possible can it? Or is this even already in effect?
Really disturbs me, even though I'm far from the states, that people in a democratic society are somewhere moving back to times where belief and culture can be punished.
I think the article title is a bit misleading, it implies that atheism itself is a punishable offense (which would be beyond insane) but then it talks about putting plaques up outside state buildings so I'm not sure who is really affected by it.
Obviously it's ridiculous either way and kind of astounding that it could remain in place so long while being such a clear violation of church-state separation.
I think the article title is a bit misleading, it implies that atheism itself is a punishable offense (which would be beyond insane) but then it talks about putting plaques up outside state buildings so I'm not sure who is really affected by it.
Obviously it's ridiculous either way and kind of astounding that it could remain in place so long while being such a clear violation of church-state separation.
Well yes it may be misleading but the point of it is that all government buildings must have this plaque disregarding any other beliefs with a sentence of 12 months waiting for any disruption or refusal to comply.
Really taking a step back in time, disappointing to see things like this.
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Either bullshit, or satire. I'm leaning on the latter. This kind of stuff wouldn't possibly be allowed to happen in the real world.
If this is only regarding plaques on official government buildings, Emperor B wondered, who exactly is going to be put in prison? You can't well jail 'the government'. Unfortunately.
Last edited by Mr. Matt; November 26th, 2012 at 10:23 AM.
If this is only regarding plaques on official government buildings, Emperor B wondered, who exactly is going to be put in prison? You can't well jail 'the government'. Unfortunately.
Well I do believe that "the government" cannot be jailed as an entity but members can?
The Kentucky law is a national embarrassment, and an insult to every clear thinking American. It is an affront to reason, and an assault on the U.S. Constitution.
is contained in the body of the story, I'd take what I read with a grain of salt.
But, with that said, I couldn't find much, but I did find a Fox News article:
Quote:
Commonwealth law commands the state's Department of Homeland Security to prominently display a plaque outside its offices that says: "The safety and security of the Commonwealth cannot be achieved apart from reliance upon Almighty God."
State law also requires all department literature to state the same.
I read nothing about jail time and it seems to only apply to government institutions and maybe employees. Certainly sounds like a case for the constitutional courts though and they've thrown out previous laws like this from Kentucky, such as requiring the display of the Ten Commandments in government buildings.
I'd also like to point out that Rep. Tom Riner, an ordained Baptist minister, is a Democrat before we go down the "Republicans are theocratic Nazis" road. An article about him, if you are so inclined: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/u...ille.html?_r=0
Last edited by Red Menace; November 26th, 2012 at 12:57 PM.
Reason: NYTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!
Re: Kentucky law infringes on seperation of church and state?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Menace
I'd also like to point out that Rep. Tom Riner, an ordained Baptist minister, is a Democrat before we go down the "Republicans are theocratic Nazis" road. An article about him, if you are so inclined: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/u...ille.html?_r=0
The same article also points out though that a fellow Democrat in the House says:
Quote:
And yet, Mr. Riner’s intense and silent stares convey a focused will. His friends and adversaries recall the time in the 1970s when the musical “Hair” first came to this city, and Mr. Riner, upset by its nudity, quietly interrupted the show by climbing on stage, a Bible in hand.
“Tom is as pious as he is persistent,” said State Senator Kathy W. Stein, a Democrat from Lexington. “He’s also prone to legislative stunts that are embarrassing and expensive for this state.”
Since 2002, state and local officials have spent more than $160,000 in legal fees, having lost case after case to the American Civil Liberties Union for posting the Ten Commandments in public buildings, and they still owe $400,000 for a 2005 case in which the Supreme Court ruled that such displays should be removed.'
It doesn't really seem he is much liked to begin with. Problem is I imagine is that of Democrats in the south tend to be on the whole more conservative anyways. Many of them became Republicans in the 80s and 90s- I know Governor Perry in Texas did the same in 1989 after being elected as a Democrat to the state house in 1984.
The issue with this law concerns a paragraph that was added to the state statues of Kentucky. This can be found here:
(3) The safety and security of the Commonwealth cannot be achieved apart from reliance upon Almighty God as set forth in the public speeches and proclamations of American Presidents, including Abraham Lincoln's historic March 30, 1863, Presidential Proclamation urging Americans to pray and fast during one of the most dangerous hours in American history, and the text of President John F. Kennedy's November 22, 1963, national security speech which concluded: "For as was written long ago: 'Except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.' "
Effective: March 28, 2002
History: Created 2002 Ky. Acts ch. 82, sec. 2, effective March 28, 2002.
This is known as Kentucky Revised Statue (KRS) 39A.285(3).
Riner added this in a law concerning the establishment of a state office for the Department of Homeland Security.
(2) The executive director shall:
(a) Publicize the findings of the General Assembly stressing the dependence on Almighty God as being vital to the security of the Commonwealth by including the provisions of KRS 39A.285(3) in its agency training and educational materials. The executive director shall also be responsible for prominently displaying a permanent plaque at the entrance to the state's Emergency Operations Center stating the text of KRS 39A.285(3);
The possibility of facing a year in jail comes from the way Kentucky law works towards government officials refusing to carry out the provisions of a law, not just this one. So it could be a possibility that if a director of this state office said he would not install these plaques, he could face jail. Of course though atheists are not very present in US politics.
You can see the voting on that where it's obvious that this was passed with only a handful of legislators opposing it. The provision that is troubling here beside putting on state property this gushy thing about God is that they are requiring the director to install these plaques. If he refuses this, then he is subject to the punishment from the government for officials who do not listen to state law.
There's another problem here though that is more profound. I'm sure anyone who has kept up with American politics knows the old mess over the installation of Ten Commandments monuments on state property in several states in years past. I remember the media storm over that with talking heads going on about how groups like the ACLU going against the law for being "politically correct" and going against the will of the people. Indeed as I recall it they made it seem the average joe here didn't actually care about secular principles and seemed to think it was insulting "their" religion by these people calling them out on doing this. Even more locally there is a story about a nativity scene being installed infront of a public building.
It would seem unfortunately that American politicians only act like secularists when it comes to say the non-existent threat of sharia law as indicated by the passing of several laws in southern states "banning" sharia law (a redundancy as things stand anyways...), going after their quixotic windmill of Muslim infiltration and take over of the United States.
All in all a very very dumb law, something that should have been taken care of before. The fact that this has gone through without opposition indicates a problem in the United States, one that has become common in states particularly in the south and parts of the midwest. I remember making a thread in Texas along similar lines, with SBOE members parroting social conservative dogma trying to fashion it to encourage American exceptionalism and "Judeo-Christian" principles.
Re: Kentucky law infringes on seperation of church and state?
But why would be installing some silly plaque somewhere be "practicing religion"? Yeah, I took a non-religious affirmation instead of an oath to the Finnish defence forces like a small minority of us and refused all prayers, but still I've worked with church sacristans and priests when I helped to bury people who didn't have enough relatives to carry the coffin.
You're not practicing religion when you're working with Christians or installing some plaques. While of course it's against the principles of secularism, it's not a very major breach.
Last edited by Rikupsoni; November 26th, 2012 at 05:01 PM.
Re: Kentucky law infringes on seperation of church and state?
Government officials in the state are required to affirm belief in the Christian God through these silly plaques as well as all their training materials. Affirming belief in the Christian God is a religious practice last time I checked.
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Kentucky law infringes on seperation of church and state? 
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