First of all, I do not intent to create a "Illuminatis are taking over the world through Disney and rap" sort of debate, nor anything really on conspiacies.
I'm more after debate or conversation around the Illuminati order in its roots, so to speak. The real, historical thing.
I searched for some similar thread and I just found some old member who showed up a JayZ video or something that had "illuminati messages" and whatnot.
That's for elementary school students, IMHO. Something my classmates and I would "debate" during break.
Nothing such as "I believe in the Illuminati"... I take it as a historical fact. You can believe in the Illuminati as much as you can believe in Rommel, or Plato.
I just read a pretty interesting article (source) on the Order of the Illuminati and its origins and members.
Now, I take that and much I've heard and read about and I focus mainly on their purpose (Or at least the purpose I know of), which is of an intellectually enlightened society, ruled by free-thought, science and knowledge. Dispise of religion and pretty much anything without a scientific or intellectual base.
To me, this seems a quite interesting idea. Something modern society should actually take to and make true... In my opinion, what'd give humanity a real hope to exist within its barriers without bashing each other with beliefs, opinions and morals. Intellectual freedom.
What are your thoughts on all this? Would a society purely based on sciense and knowledge be something good for us?
Personally, I think most human DO need a belief to hold on to in desperation... Something science cannot quite give in some situations. I'm not saying anyone's wrong or right, just that all individuals differ from each other... But yet, wouldn't a society "ruled" by a group as the Illuminati be able to... Co-exist with each other (cultures, races, languages, mannes, etc)?
Also, I'd appriciate any opinions and thoughts (supported by facts, if possible) about societies as illuminati, Freemasons and Bones or whatever they're called... Its full of societies after all
he scream at own ass. w :v ♥ Formerly known as: Einherjar Silberio ♥
Last edited by Silberio; July 27th, 2012 at 02:55 PM.
First of all, I do not intent to create a "Illuminatis are taking over the world through Disney and rap" sort of debate, nor anything really on conspiacies.
That made me laugh.
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Originally Posted by Einherjar Silberio
To me, this seems a quite interesting idea. Something modern society should actually take to and make true... In my opinion, what'd give humanity a real hope to exist within its barriers without bashing each other with beliefs, opinions and morals. Intellectual freedom.
Freedom would be nice, but no matter which side of the coin you fall on, someone out there isn't going to give a damn, and will seek to tear your world down. It doesn't matter what your beliefs are - beliefs don't cause conflicts, humans who are too extreme about what they believe do.
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Originally Posted by Einherjar Silberio
What are your thoughts on all this? Would a society purely based on sciense and knowledge be something good for us?
No. And for the same reasons I don't think school uniforms are a good idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjar Silberio
Personally, I think most human DO need a belief to hold on to in desperation... Something science cannot quite give in some situations. I'm not saying anyone's wrong or right, just that all individuals differ from each other... But yet, wouldn't a society "ruled" by a group as the Illuminati be able to... Co-exist with each other (cultures, races, languages, mannes, etc)?
There are some very fascinating books/video games/movies that tackle this very subject. But what makes you assume these Illuminati would keep everyone happy with one another? There are probably more bad people in the world than good people (a lot of them would be right on the fence, you just need to push them in one direction). I cannot see a future ruled by a small group of people as a bright one.
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Originally Posted by Einherjar Silberio
Also, I'd appriciate any opinions and thoughts (supported by facts, if possible) about societies as illuminati, Freemasons and Bones or whatever they're called... Its full of societies after all
I don't know much about them, my grandfather or great-grandfather was part of the Freemasons though, and that tree goes really far back.
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Would such a society be ideal? I don't think a society based off reason and science is bad, rather it will probably be more rational and clean. Frankly we're already heading towards that direction with the progress of economy and culture they way they are. Now if such a society could be run with a small council of "enlightened" people smacks of an oligarchy with trappings of a technocracy I think would just invite problems with people feeling that they are just cogs in the machine.
What do we really have if you just have a society of people telling them they know what is best for you? This really can be seen as a dictatorship by some people rather than a desirable one, even if you see it as an "enlightened" despot in the vein of Napoleon or Catherine in the past.
I must emphasize though that groups like the Illuminati are not merely positioning themselves as a society of intellectuals, but the cream of the crop of society. Those that are responsible for keeping the world in balance and what not, it all smacks of paternalism.
There are real organizations like the Iluminati and Freemasons, but the extent they have on society is exaggerated as are their goals. I've always found it odd why these groups, among others like the Bilderbergs and Trilateral Commission, were always a topic of fascination among some people. Some of it flat out hatred, especially in those that claimed the Jewish people were running the world, somehow simultaneously seizing control of banks and spawning communist revolution in Russia to further their aims. This is spawned from things like Protocols of the Elders of Zion, "Judeo-Masons", and much more that some how the Jews controlled the world. Not only Jews, but we get similar conspiracies with Opus Dei, Jesuits, Muslim Brotherhood, etc. with infiltration in governments and major civil society groups to "guide" society in their way.
That a vast NWO is able to be manipulating world affairs to benefit themselves and their goals just ignores the way politics work. Sure, you got the president, but what about all those other people who exert influence on the government? Those other members of the bureaucracy, the heads of major corporations, civil society groups, etc. If only it was as "simple" as making sure that the heads of state and businesses are in your pocket- politics and economy is much more nuanced than that.
I'd suggest we in the developed world already have a society that is based on science and knowledge, in the most important ways. Where would any of us be without these things? Of course, that does not mean everybody is informed about, or even believes in science.
I think secularism and religious freedom are mutually inclusive - I also make no secret of the fact that I think the world would be a much better place if traditional religious beliefs were to disappear altogether. But I don't think it is necessary or desirable to replace one authoritarian power structure with another that just happens to favour enlightenment ideas. Reason and science are what have the power to improve the lot of society in the long term, where religious conservatism ultimately leads to stagnation. So I tend to think (perhaps a bit optimistically) that any prosperous society will start moving towards secularism with time.
That might go some way to explaining why Illuminati and New World Order conspiracies are so popular with religious extremists. The idea that there is some great centralised plot to destroy religion is a more favourable narrative than the truth - the better educated and informed a society is, the more it turns away from dogmatic and limiting modes of thought.
Reason and science are tools, and while much can be built on them their implementation is ultimately built on the desires of assorted individuals. You cannot, at the base of it all, have a society based solely on reason and science.
Would it be good if people pursued their desires in a more rational method? I think so. People would get what they wanted more. I think people would be happier. As it stands people can make a few mistakes that there are few warning signs around when they're kids and be effectively fucked for the rest of their lives. Or go through their entire lives never really working out what they really want or how to get it.
But a lot of this is just shorthand for a really big complicated problem of general education. A sort of, 'Oh wouldn't it be nice if people weren't dumbasses.' sentiment.
That might go some way to explaining why Illuminati and New World Order conspiracies are so popular with religious extremists. The idea that there is some great centralised plot to destroy religion is a more favourable narrative than the truth...
Most of the time when I see comments such as these, I consider that those blaming these conspiracies, are more likely either A: Brainwashed oblivious servants of the conspiracy itself, or B: The type to create the type of conspiracy they are crying out against.
It is only logical that such organizations exist, and that several organizations exist. Because there are several organizations, they limit each others power and influence. However, each of these organizations likely has some insight into the human condition, a particular line of reasoning that would benefit society as a whole, wrapped up in their confused mess of a control system.
There are a lot of sheeple in the world. People are often risk adverse, and have limited knowledge of the happenings around them. They want leadership, and guidance, and such organizatons can provide that guidance, that security. Most people do not want to be controlled, and fear organized groups that are pushing particular thoughts, wisdom, or agendas. Thus these groups cannot reveal themselves, or it would undermine their objectives, even if they are ethically, and morally correct.
However, if you could create, and maintain a society that regulates itself, but have techniques for planting ideas into that society, inception style, perhaps you could move towards a society that works towards your goals? This society could self-reinforce itself, and if most of its members are influential members of society, then they could recruit other members into the logic of the fold, without anyone being the wiser.
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Originally Posted by Nemmerle
Would it be good if people pursued their desires in a more rational method? I think so. People would get what they wanted more. I think people would be happier. As it stands people can make a few mistakes that there are few warning signs around when they're kids and be effectively fucked for the rest of their lives. Or go through their entire lives never really working out what they really want or how to get it.
How does one teach reasoning, and encourage and enable the expanding of one's mind? Is knowledge really the end all, be all solution to our problems, or eithical and moral delimmas?
Less knowledgeable groups seem to reproduce at a faster rate, limiting the amount of knowledge that can be taught to them easily, as knowledge seems to easier to teach to smaller groups than larger groups. Quantity vs Quality.
Even as the numbers of knowledgeable individuals increases, the number of less knowledgeable individuals increases that much more. This seems to ensure that the problem of education is always beyond our control.
Tell me, my friend, have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?
About secularism, yes, theoretically speaking, wiping out the traditional and conservative religious thought would bring society much closer to enlightment, but it's wrong aswell. As MercZ said, we can't replace one dictatorship with another... It's just the same thing anyway, but rather a way to make both things either come together or just two completely separate things, where I believe the latter would be the best option. People have right to chose their beliefs and thoughts, as long as they don't collide with someone else's thoughts.
As we say here in Sweden "A person's freedom ends when it touches someone else's freedom". It's in that part where I feel a society like Illuminati would fail on
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schofield
There are some very fascinating books/video games/movies that tackle this very subject. But what makes you assume these Illuminati would keep everyone happy with one another? There are probably more bad people in the world than good people (a lot of them would be right on the fence, you just need to push them in one direction). I cannot see a future ruled by a small group of people as a bright one.
I do not say a society or group like Illuminati would keep everyone happy, I really don't think they would. But I mean the way of thinking would probably work good on humanity, putting the fictional case that the ones who are in charge are 100% free from bigots, greedy people and bad people in general, since in a place where science and knowledge usually teaches that everyone IS different and would promote open mindness, which is something that I think at this point should be a lot bigger than what it is.
I mean, lots of people still think being gay is weird/wrong or that every single individual is the same depending on where they come from... I think that knowledge and science would pretty much erase a big bit of bigotry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiloByte
How does one teach reasoning, and encourage and enable the expanding of one's mind? Is knowledge really the end all, be all solution to our problems, or eithical and moral delimmas?
Less knowledgeable groups seem to reproduce at a faster rate, limiting the amount of knowledge that can be taught to them easily, as knowledge seems to easier to teach to smaller groups than larger groups. Quantity vs Quality.
Even as the numbers of knowledgeable individuals increases, the number of less knowledgeable individuals increases that much more. This seems to ensure that the problem of education is always beyond our control.
I do find a lot of what you say there right and logicall... And it IS a true fact, but it's not impossible to change a bit the way of thinking in some places, maybe not fast, but it gradually, it is possible. What I mean, is what I've seen in Chile and I compare to what I see here in Sweden, in school.
Now, everything has to start from the top. If the big ones (politicians, leaders, etc) can bring a certain way of thought down to the workers, and those to the children, after a generation or two, you could actually achieve a greater level of reasoning in people. As I said before, at school: here, for example, at biology, we were thaught sexual education, where our teacher brought it up as just another biological topic, whereas in Chile, which is culturaly an underdeveloped country, there was practically no sex-ed at all. During the two years I was in school there, we talked in class only once about sex, and it was our religion teacher... And religion class there isn't about comparing ethics, morals, cultures between different religion, but just Catholic teaching. A teacher wouldn't say "condom" or "penis" for the sole fear of being prosecuted by conservative parents "protecting their children".
This all comes from the people who raised those parents and teachers, and those children will most likely raise their children the same way.
As it goes for reasoning and mind expanding, I think that that comes to who it is. It's individual, so you can't really put some people in a room and "teach them how to think" or de-stupidify them (I apologize for the crude term), since it really differs from every individual, but you could teach children to respect each others way of thought and teach them that there is no "weird" or "different" from each other in a negative way.
So basically, what Nemmerle said.
he scream at own ass. w :v ♥ Formerly known as: Einherjar Silberio ♥
Last edited by Silberio; July 28th, 2012 at 11:17 AM.
What makes it logical to assume something exists in the absence of evidence? What does it actually contribute to our understanding of the world?
Something does not have to contribute to our understanding, to be logical.
I'm not saying that these organizations have the grand power or control that they are said to have, but logic dictates that the power levels, influence, and membership of these groups will have fluctuated, and that these groups will have existed.
While evidence may not be easily available, I'm sure it is out there, but I'm not going to go digging in Ingolstadt (Upper Bavaria) for evidence from the 1770s. Illuminati - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Look at fraternities, interest groups, religions, intelligence organizations. Look at the Justice League, or the Avengers in comics. Look a cliques, social groups, clubs, etc. Look at the KKK, who cannot operate as openly, or as actively as they once did, yet they still wish to continue their operations. What happens when the KKK can no longer acknowledge their own existence?
It is the nature of our species to band together when we share opinions, or interests. When we feel strongly about our positions, we often think there is only one right answer. It is also our nature to control our environment, up to, and including controlling others if possible.
It also seems to be the nature of our species to be nosy, and seek to know as much about our neighbors, and enemies as possible.
As for how powerful these groups are, I do not know. It is logical that these groups have existed, and that a lot of smaller groups have existed. It is therefore logical that some of these groups may have enjoyed power at some point, and have wanted to keep that power. It is also logical that some of these groups might have been pushed into secrecy by one group or another.
Something does not have to contribute to our understanding, to be logical.
No, however it is very illogical to believe something which is neither supported by direct evidence, nor needed in order to explain some otherwise puzzling fact about the world. There is a thing called Occam's Razor for that sort of situation.
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I'm not saying that these organizations have the grand power or control that they are said to have, but logic dictates that the power levels, influence, and membership of these groups will have fluctuated, and that these groups will have existed.
While evidence may not be easily available, I'm sure it is out there, but I'm not going to go digging in Ingolstadt (Upper Bavaria) for evidence from the 1770s. Illuminati - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I am aware that a society called the Illuminati existed for a brief period in the 18th century and that groups vaguely like the Illuminati exist today. Apparently they aren't making much effort to hide the fact, either. What's not clear, though, is that this is something that bears any real relation to modern-day conspiracy theories involving secret societies guiding the course of human civilisation using subliminal mind-control.
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Look at fraternities, interest groups, religions, intelligence organizations. Look at the Justice League, or the Avengers in comics. Look a cliques, social groups, clubs, etc. Look at the KKK, who cannot operate as openly, or as actively as they once did, yet they still wish to continue their operations. What happens when the KKK can no longer acknowledge their own existence?
It is the nature of our species to band together when we share opinions, or interests. When we feel strongly about our positions, we often think there is only one right answer. It is also our nature to control our environment, up to, and including controlling others if possible.
It also seems to be the nature of our species to be nosy, and seek to know as much about our neighbors, and enemies as possible.
Well, what are you actually saying here? That there are groups which dedicate themselves to the advancement of social and political agendas held by the members of those groups? Okay, sure, I agree with you. I wouldn't exactly say that was a secret, though.
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As for how powerful these groups are, I do not know. It is logical that these groups have existed, and that a lot of smaller groups have existed. It is therefore logical that some of these groups may have enjoyed power at some point, and have wanted to keep that power. It is also logical that some of these groups might have been pushed into secrecy by one group or another.
I think the word you're looking for is "conceivable". It is conceivable that secret societies exist which have substantial power and influence over people's day-to-day lives and beliefs. It is just very unlikely given the lack of any indication of such a thing to be found in the real world.
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