Thoughts on Illuminati and similar?
 

First of all, I do not intent to create a "Illuminatis are taking over the world through Disney and rap" sort of debate, nor anything really on conspiacies.
I'm more after debate or conversation around the Illuminati order in its roots, so to speak. The real, historical thing.

I searched for some similar thread and I just found some old member who showed up a JayZ video or something that had "illuminati messages" and whatnot.
That's for elementary school students, IMHO. Something my classmates and I would "debate" during break.

Nothing such as "I believe in the Illuminati"... I take it as a historical fact. You can believe in the Illuminati as much as you can believe in Rommel, or Plato.

I just read a pretty interesting article (source) on the Order of the Illuminati and its origins and members.
Now, I take that and much I've heard and read about and I focus mainly on their purpose (Or at least the purpose I know of), which is of an intellectually enlightened society, ruled by free-thought, science and knowledge. Dispise of religion and pretty much anything without a scientific or intellectual base.

To me, this seems a quite interesting idea. Something modern society should actually take to and make true... In my opinion, what'd give humanity a real hope to exist within its barriers without bashing each other with beliefs, opinions and morals. Intellectual freedom.

What are your thoughts on all this? Would a society purely based on sciense and knowledge be something good for us?
Personally, I think most human DO need a belief to hold on to in desperation... Something science cannot quite give in some situations. I'm not saying anyone's wrong or right, just that all individuals differ from each other... But yet, wouldn't a society "ruled" by a group as the Illuminati be able to... Co-exist with each other (cultures, races, languages, mannes, etc)?

Also, I'd appriciate any opinions and thoughts (supported by facts, if possible) about societies as illuminati, Freemasons and Bones or whatever they're called... Its full of societies after all ;)

Re: Thoughts on Illuminati and similar?
 

That made me laugh. =p

Freedom would be nice, but no matter which side of the coin you fall on, someone out there isn't going to give a damn, and will seek to tear your world down. It doesn't matter what your beliefs are - beliefs don't cause conflicts, humans who are too extreme about what they believe do.

No. And for the same reasons I don't think school uniforms are a good idea.

There are some very fascinating books/video games/movies that tackle this very subject. But what makes you assume these Illuminati would keep everyone happy with one another? There are probably more bad people in the world than good people (a lot of them would be right on the fence, you just need to push them in one direction). I cannot see a future ruled by a small group of people as a bright one.

I don't know much about them, my grandfather or great-grandfather was part of the Freemasons though, and that tree goes really far back.

Re: Thoughts on Illuminati and similar?
 

Would such a society be ideal? I don't think a society based off reason and science is bad, rather it will probably be more rational and clean. Frankly we're already heading towards that direction with the progress of economy and culture they way they are. Now if such a society could be run with a small council of "enlightened" people smacks of an oligarchy with trappings of a technocracy I think would just invite problems with people feeling that they are just cogs in the machine.

What do we really have if you just have a society of people telling them they know what is best for you? This really can be seen as a dictatorship by some people rather than a desirable one, even if you see it as an "enlightened" despot in the vein of Napoleon or Catherine in the past.

I must emphasize though that groups like the Illuminati are not merely positioning themselves as a society of intellectuals, but the cream of the crop of society. Those that are responsible for keeping the world in balance and what not, it all smacks of paternalism.

There are real organizations like the Iluminati and Freemasons, but the extent they have on society is exaggerated as are their goals. I've always found it odd why these groups, among others like the Bilderbergs and Trilateral Commission, were always a topic of fascination among some people. Some of it flat out hatred, especially in those that claimed the Jewish people were running the world, somehow simultaneously seizing control of banks and spawning communist revolution in Russia to further their aims. This is spawned from things like Protocols of the Elders of Zion, "Judeo-Masons", and much more that some how the Jews controlled the world. Not only Jews, but we get similar conspiracies with Opus Dei, Jesuits, Muslim Brotherhood, etc. with infiltration in governments and major civil society groups to "guide" society in their way.

That a vast NWO is able to be manipulating world affairs to benefit themselves and their goals just ignores the way politics work. Sure, you got the president, but what about all those other people who exert influence on the government? Those other members of the bureaucracy, the heads of major corporations, civil society groups, etc. If only it was as "simple" as making sure that the heads of state and businesses are in your pocket- politics and economy is much more nuanced than that.

Re: Thoughts on Illuminati and similar?
 

I'd suggest we in the developed world already have a society that is based on science and knowledge, in the most important ways. Where would any of us be without these things? Of course, that does not mean everybody is informed about, or even believes in science.

I think secularism and religious freedom are mutually inclusive - I also make no secret of the fact that I think the world would be a much better place if traditional religious beliefs were to disappear altogether. But I don't think it is necessary or desirable to replace one authoritarian power structure with another that just happens to favour enlightenment ideas. Reason and science are what have the power to improve the lot of society in the long term, where religious conservatism ultimately leads to stagnation. So I tend to think (perhaps a bit optimistically) that any prosperous society will start moving towards secularism with time.

That might go some way to explaining why Illuminati and New World Order conspiracies are so popular with religious extremists. The idea that there is some great centralised plot to destroy religion is a more favourable narrative than the truth - the better educated and informed a society is, the more it turns away from dogmatic and limiting modes of thought.

Re: Thoughts on Illuminati and similar?
 

Reason and science are tools, and while much can be built on them their implementation is ultimately built on the desires of assorted individuals. You cannot, at the base of it all, have a society based solely on reason and science.

Would it be good if people pursued their desires in a more rational method? I think so. People would get what they wanted more. I think people would be happier. As it stands people can make a few mistakes that there are few warning signs around when they're kids and be effectively fucked for the rest of their lives. Or go through their entire lives never really working out what they really want or how to get it.

But a lot of this is just shorthand for a really big complicated problem of general education. A sort of, 'Oh wouldn't it be nice if people weren't dumbasses.' sentiment.

Re: Thoughts on Illuminati and similar?
 

Most of the time when I see comments such as these, I consider that those blaming these conspiracies, are more likely either A: Brainwashed oblivious servants of the conspiracy itself, or B: The type to create the type of conspiracy they are crying out against.

It is only logical that such organizations exist, and that several organizations exist. Because there are several organizations, they limit each others power and influence. However, each of these organizations likely has some insight into the human condition, a particular line of reasoning that would benefit society as a whole, wrapped up in their confused mess of a control system.

There are a lot of sheeple in the world. People are often risk adverse, and have limited knowledge of the happenings around them. They want leadership, and guidance, and such organizatons can provide that guidance, that security. Most people do not want to be controlled, and fear organized groups that are pushing particular thoughts, wisdom, or agendas. Thus these groups cannot reveal themselves, or it would undermine their objectives, even if they are ethically, and morally correct.

However, if you could create, and maintain a society that regulates itself, but have techniques for planting ideas into that society, inception style, perhaps you could move towards a society that works towards your goals? This society could self-reinforce itself, and if most of its members are influential members of society, then they could recruit other members into the logic of the fold, without anyone being the wiser.

How does one teach reasoning, and encourage and enable the expanding of one's mind? Is knowledge really the end all, be all solution to our problems, or eithical and moral delimmas?

Less knowledgeable groups seem to reproduce at a faster rate, limiting the amount of knowledge that can be taught to them easily, as knowledge seems to easier to teach to smaller groups than larger groups. Quantity vs Quality.

Even as the numbers of knowledgeable individuals increases, the number of less knowledgeable individuals increases that much more. This seems to ensure that the problem of education is always beyond our control.

Re: Thoughts on Illuminati and similar?
 

What makes it logical to assume something exists in the absence of evidence? What does it actually contribute to our understanding of the world?

Re: Thoughts on Illuminati and similar?
 

About secularism, yes, theoretically speaking, wiping out the traditional and conservative religious thought would bring society much closer to enlightment, but it's wrong aswell. As MercZ said, we can't replace one dictatorship with another... It's just the same thing anyway, but rather a way to make both things either come together or just two completely separate things, where I believe the latter would be the best option. People have right to chose their beliefs and thoughts, as long as they don't collide with someone else's thoughts.

As we say here in Sweden "A person's freedom ends when it touches someone else's freedom". It's in that part where I feel a society like Illuminati would fail on

I do not say a society or group like Illuminati would keep everyone happy, I really don't think they would. But I mean the way of thinking would probably work good on humanity, putting the fictional case that the ones who are in charge are 100% free from bigots, greedy people and bad people in general, since in a place where science and knowledge usually teaches that everyone IS different and would promote open mindness, which is something that I think at this point should be a lot bigger than what it is.
I mean, lots of people still think being gay is weird/wrong or that every single individual is the same depending on where they come from... I think that knowledge and science would pretty much erase a big bit of bigotry.

I do find a lot of what you say there right and logicall... And it IS a true fact, but it's not impossible to change a bit the way of thinking in some places, maybe not fast, but it gradually, it is possible. What I mean, is what I've seen in Chile and I compare to what I see here in Sweden, in school.

Now, everything has to start from the top. If the big ones (politicians, leaders, etc) can bring a certain way of thought down to the workers, and those to the children, after a generation or two, you could actually achieve a greater level of reasoning in people. As I said before, at school: here, for example, at biology, we were thaught sexual education, where our teacher brought it up as just another biological topic, whereas in Chile, which is culturaly an underdeveloped country, there was practically no sex-ed at all. During the two years I was in school there, we talked in class only once about sex, and it was our religion teacher... And religion class there isn't about comparing ethics, morals, cultures between different religion, but just Catholic teaching. A teacher wouldn't say "condom" or "penis" for the sole fear of being prosecuted by conservative parents "protecting their children".

This all comes from the people who raised those parents and teachers, and those children will most likely raise their children the same way.

As it goes for reasoning and mind expanding, I think that that comes to who it is. It's individual, so you can't really put some people in a room and "teach them how to think" or de-stupidify them (I apologize for the crude term), since it really differs from every individual, but you could teach children to respect each others way of thought and teach them that there is no "weird" or "different" from each other in a negative way.

So basically, what Nemmerle said.

Re: Thoughts on Illuminati and similar?
 

Something does not have to contribute to our understanding, to be logical.

I'm not saying that these organizations have the grand power or control that they are said to have, but logic dictates that the power levels, influence, and membership of these groups will have fluctuated, and that these groups will have existed.

While evidence may not be easily available, I'm sure it is out there, but I'm not going to go digging in Ingolstadt (Upper Bavaria) for evidence from the 1770s.
Illuminati - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at fraternities, interest groups, religions, intelligence organizations. Look at the Justice League, or the Avengers in comics. Look a cliques, social groups, clubs, etc. Look at the KKK, who cannot operate as openly, or as actively as they once did, yet they still wish to continue their operations. What happens when the KKK can no longer acknowledge their own existence?

It is the nature of our species to band together when we share opinions, or interests. When we feel strongly about our positions, we often think there is only one right answer. It is also our nature to control our environment, up to, and including controlling others if possible.

It also seems to be the nature of our species to be nosy, and seek to know as much about our neighbors, and enemies as possible.

As for how powerful these groups are, I do not know. It is logical that these groups have existed, and that a lot of smaller groups have existed. It is therefore logical that some of these groups may have enjoyed power at some point, and have wanted to keep that power. It is also logical that some of these groups might have been pushed into secrecy by one group or another.

Re: Thoughts on Illuminati and similar?
 

No, however it is very illogical to believe something which is neither supported by direct evidence, nor needed in order to explain some otherwise puzzling fact about the world. There is a thing called Occam's Razor for that sort of situation.I am aware that a society called the Illuminati existed for a brief period in the 18th century and that groups vaguely like the Illuminati exist today. Apparently they aren't making much effort to hide the fact, either. What's not clear, though, is that this is something that bears any real relation to modern-day conspiracy theories involving secret societies guiding the course of human civilisation using subliminal mind-control.Well, what are you actually saying here? That there are groups which dedicate themselves to the advancement of social and political agendas held by the members of those groups? Okay, sure, I agree with you. I wouldn't exactly say that was a secret, though.I think the word you're looking for is "conceivable". It is conceivable that secret societies exist which have substantial power and influence over people's day-to-day lives and beliefs. It is just very unlikely given the lack of any indication of such a thing to be found in the real world.

Re: Thoughts on Illuminati and similar?
 

• Show enthusiasm when kids share something they've discovered with you.

• Share things you're enthusiastic about with kids.

• Reward people finding out that they're wrong.

• Scale rewards heavily for multiple solutions to problems and uses for ideas or things.

• Don't teach pointless shit people can't do anything with.

It's a lot more complex than that but those would be my five big bullet points if I were asked to order the five most important things off the top of my head. There's a lot of refinement and little things we can do to get the niggles worked out and fit things for various personality types and so on, you could write books about the subject, but it's not a particularly complex problem to get a whole hell of a lot of improvement over how we do things at the moment.

Yes, and much of the relevant knowledge in that sense is self-knowledge; which you have to gain by reason and experience. That's one of the reasons why teaching people rationality is so important, because no-one can tell them those things about themselves with any real authority.

Some people think that rationality is spiritually dead. But, on the contrary, rationality, when applied to morality and ethics has a lot to say about introspection and what, with your set of values and beliefs, it means to be a good person. How that interacts with the world and others beliefs.

Some of that's awfully hard won. Maybe you discover things about yourself that you're not entirely comfortable with. There's certainly a danger with spirituality that to whatever extent your exploration of it might make you a better person it can also make you a much worse person - so you should venture into it with the best tools available. I think that should be a warning given at the start of every first year ethics lecture in all honesty. A lot of the way that people teach moral philosophy these days, talking of right and wrong as moral absolutes, pretty much encourages apathy.

I suppose you're perhaps hinting at religion here, as the classical extreme counter-example. I took philosophy for my masters. And in all honesty main stream religions strike me as spiritually shallow by comparison to the history of analytical philosophy. There are a lot of people, in religions, imitating the surface behaviours of a set of beliefs that they don't actually feel themselves. When you ask them to explain it, it's rare to find someone that gives you back in return more than a list of commandments - someone who can speak about their love for things or their values or.... It's often done out of fear, or hope of some reward. Oh how spiritual. Mere belief does not entail moral or ethical enlightenment. Which I would consider the heart of spirituality, in the sense that they're about the nature of being and identity.


Knowledgeable or educated? They're not the same thing at all.

I think at the moment we make education very hard to get along with, in that sense we're already selecting for people who wouldn't be particularly likely to reproduce anyway.

Three possible types off the top of my head:

• People who have some motivation that drives them to tolerate it and that would likely occupy their lives regardless,

• or people who are messed up on the inside and have social problems that both limit their friends and thus increase the size of the education attractor relative to others and that would make family unpleasant,

• or people who are less attracted by immediate rewards (including sex) and thus have the ability to hold out for the eventual reward at the end of all that suffering....

With most of the things I can think of that would lead someone to educational success under our current system, it doesn't really surprise me that people who are highly educated wouldn't tend to fall into the attractors for having a lot of children.

But that's not necessarily always going to be the case. If we can make becoming knowledgeable more fun, if we can add more of a social aspect to learning - then perhaps we can turn that on its head. There doesn't seem to be anything innate about being knowledgeable that would lead you not to reproduce.

Re: Thoughts on Illuminati and similar?
 

A very good post Nem, as usual.

I shouldn't be so stingy with the reputation, I can never add to your rep,...

Hmm,... I do so thoroughly enjoy making myself look like an idiot. =p

I had not properly separated the logical from the conceivable, and inadvertently created a debate where there was none to be had. Nearly 80% of my posts are practically off the cuff, so I'm surprised this hasn't happened more often. Let me try again.

It is clear that organizations exist that attempt to influence the decisions of others, for their social and political agendas. It is logical that these organizations either have power and influence or are secret, neither both. As you have stated, it is conceivable, albeit far fetched, that an organization can have both substantial influence and maintain its secrecy.

I believe it is necessary that such organizations exist, not in secret, due to the desire for leadership among the people. Also, these organizations are like umbrella organizations, an alliance that provides people with more power and influence than they would otherwise have. This also provides a way for the leaders to encourage willing recipients to share their social and political agendas.

Re: Thoughts on Illuminati and similar?
 

The Zionist Conspiracy to create the Jewish World Order is real and starts with Israel and the New York Bank. I kid.