How do you figure a robot will only ever be able to do what its programmed to do ?
That doesn't make sense, and is absolutely wrong.
Even today computers have errors, pieces of code that can learn, and dont do what they were designed to do at 100% efficiency.
A computer at a basic level doesn't always do what its told, and how many times has the windows program crashed, been hacked, modified etc. My point is they already do things they were not designed to do.A computer is designed simply to turn on and off, billions of times per second, its a mega arrangement of minute switches, that run a program, like the brain uses bio matter over silicone matter, but both can run a program.
There is no reason to dought that one day we will achieve a sentient robot/computer, and there is just as much reason to believe it will truly be a free thinker with self recognition and wanting self preservation.
A robot will be capable of doing far more than its original program allows for, even today we have learning programs, uploaded into robots that learn NEW things, ie, no base code for that activity to start with.That is AI at a basic level.Doing stuff on its own, making its own decisions, totally unrelated to the original program that brought it to life.
We have them right now.
They are over 8 years old.
These robots do not do what anyone tells them to do, and for them to move, they must learn to navigate new objects, with absolutely no prior information about that object, its size shape or orientation and must get around them and move on, what motivates that now and why would it change in the future ? l dought it will. These things were not even programed to move, they decided to do that all one there own. Why ? Complex isn't it.
We dont understand it properly, but were making small gains everyday, just a matter of time until you get a black eye for back chatting an I-Robot !
You can argue that the original code that started it before it became self aware can be modified to change its behavior, but it will not take away from the fact that the robot/computer is self aware can now make decisions for itself, and you can argue that robots/computers will never feel emotions, but its a flawed argument, because where did human feelings of emotion evolve from ? No-one really understands it.
Why wouldn't a robot want public holidays ?
Because in a computers mind a second is a million years, one holiday a year would just send it nutz with boredom, so we would utilize EDUCATION, the smartest humans that always do well are very well educated, no reason a robot/computer cannot be educated in the same way a human is, only faster and more.Of coarse the real issue here is humans dont like the idea that a robot could have equal rights.
If one is self aware and sentient, and its in a situation where it or a human must die, what takes precedent ?A human would say humans do, a robot would say robots do, but really if we create something to be our equal and or better, sooner or later it will want rights like humans do.
And what right do we have to say no after creating true sentient life, before you reply and say we created it, if its a threat we kill it, we created guns, nuclear weapons, infarct we create murderers everyday, we create terrorist governments and anti matter, how is a robot any different ?
Do you think the threat of being locked in a room for ever or melted down is a good deterrence for murder ? Works on humans. Humans dont like being locked up because it gets so boring and no freedom. Theres no reason to believe that robots wont think the same way. There are still murders yes, and some people get away with it , but tell me would you just randomly go out and kill the person next door right now ? l dought it, jail isn't your favorite place then. How bored will a robot get after, mmmm, 3.82735342 seconds of being locked up, gunna go into brain meltdown mode ! l dun reckon the educated robots would like to be in a place like that, and would be motivated, like humans are to do things.
Whats really interesting is this, does a sentient artificial life form need to be running its program 100% of the time or it dies, like humans do. That means no reboot mode etc.You are what you evolve into until you turn off and its over, kinda like humans are now.Humans can be knocked out and go into comas etc, but there is always some brain activity, our program always seems to be running, even if in a hibernated state like when we sleep, does a robot have the same constraints ?
If we master turning a conciseness on and off, OMFG, distant travel to other galaxies could be possible, upload us to a chip for storage, and when were 30 years or so from our destination, we [our non sentient robots ! ] clone new bodies and download, hey presto we just spawned a new Galaxy and time is irrelevant ! Yea thats out there ay hahaha !
If you could have a bio mechanical body 1000 times more durable and just as sensitive with touch, as the human body, would you ?
l would in a heart beat.
If l could move into a mechanized body with the same sensory inputs as a human body l would jump at it.
In the end we will probably put our computer programs on some sort of bio chip anyways, and that itself could lead to a better understanding of sentient life, and may give us some breakthrough.
They may be able to think and react quicker, but I ponder whether they'd have instinct. They're essentially just a program. They're not natural. This is, only speculation mind. I'm not stating facts one way or the other, as I have none to go on.
Instinct is grounded in reality. And if you're good enough at something, you don't need luck. Or, as someone used to say to me, the better you get, the 'luckier' you seem to be.
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How do you figure a robot will only ever be able to do what its programmed to do ?
That doesn't make sense, and is absolutely wrong.
Even today computers have errors, pieces of code that can learn, and dont do what they were designed to do at 100% efficiency.
Computers always do to the best of their capabilities what we tell them to do. Most people's complaints about computers, in fact, results from this, because what we want them to do isn't really what we tell them to do.
The biggest complaint l hear about computers is actually system lag.Not something we tried to design into our programs or hardware.
And the next biggest complaint l hear is actually program errors, bugs and crashes that sort of thing, all things un intended when we invented them causing them to not do what there told in alot of cases.
But if you have a problem in your head you can think about it, in many complex different ways, even though we have some computers/robots that can do some limited thinking and decision making now, we have nothing even remotely close to what our brain can do, YET !
l could be cheeky and just say the reason our PC's are all AFUBAR and always will be is Windows ! hahaha It cant run for more than a week without a crash of some kind, sentient life has utterly no fukin hope with coders like microsofton ! hahahamybad.
Will it though? A Robot will only ever be able to do what it is programmed to do.
You can actually include more or less random variables in a computer system. And you can make the structure of the program itself dependent upon selection over those variables according to a given heuristic. You can evolve a program in much the same manner as animals seem to have evolved.
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Originally Posted by Emperor Benedictine
I don't doubt that any sort of AI we can find a use for will get made in the fullness of time. What I question is why a machine built for a specific function should be programmed with the ability to do anything other than carry out that function when instructed. This is why I say sentient AIs are pointless from a practical perspective. You don't want your cancer-curing computer to have a mind of its own... just to cure cancer.To clarify my original point a little... I think if we ever do create a truly sentient AI it will probably not be because we want it to be responsible for dangerous things like missile defense systems/killer robot factories etc. So it's not so much that we would always be careful enough to keep a dangerous AI under control, as that you would have to go out of your way to make an AI a danger to you in the first place.
Because the more general a tool the more use you can get out of it. Why have something that can just cure cancer - why not have it able to design new microchips too? Why not have it able to translate languages? You can make a lot more money out of a general tool than a specific one.
And the more general you make it, the more people you're prepared to give one too, the smarter it has to be in order to interpret very vague commands. Something that's just given an order to go cure cancer could conceivably be a hell of a lot smarter than the person giving the orders - even to the point of being sentient.
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Originally Posted by jackripped
How bored will a robot get after, mmmm, 3.82735342 seconds of being locked up, gunna go into brain meltdown mode ! l dun reckon the educated robots would like to be in a place like that, and would be motivated, like humans are to do things.
Any advanced AI is likely going to be able to alter its own sense of time. An AI, would arguably mirror Milton's Lucifer in possession of: 'A mind not to be changed by place or time. [A] mind [that] is its own place, and in itself. Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven'
And when your bored ?
A computer that is self aware is going to get bored because is so intelligent if you lock it away, and no matter how much it understands time, it cannot manipulate it, and would always have a redundancy clock built into the back round to account for the time, because even if you can stop or control it in some way, it still needs to be measured relative to us and our time for it to know when to wake back up and stay in sync. So no a computer will not manipulate time itself.It will only manipulate its own internal time, which really means little to us. And to be able to do even that , it must have a sync to our universal time, a clock outside of itself, so it can tell how long its been asleep and when to wake up.
So in effect, by default, it cannot even manipulate internal time properly.
Originally Posted by Emperor Benedictine I don't doubt that any sort of AI we can find a use for will get made in the fullness of time. What I question is why a machine built for a specific function should be programmed with the ability to do anything other than carry out that function when instructed. This is why I say sentient AIs are pointless from a practical perspective. .
What if the instruction to be carried out is LOVE ?
What if the mission is marriage ?
And your question is a little vague, a robot designed to look and work like a human, could do everything a human could do and more, and faster and stronger and more endurance, so your question '' why programmer it with anything other than the tasks its needs to do'' is pretty much answered like this, we humans want to create a sentient robotic being that can be as good or better than our own bodies and be so good, you cant tell its human or robot, thats what we are striving for, and why, because it can do all the jobs humans can do, not just one its specifically designed for, take a robot out of a car factory and ask it to make you a coffee, see my point ?
We cant program that, what it is to have conciseness, its something learned, something taught, something evolved something not quite understood, but having a sentient self aware intelligent robot could be our next step for survival as a human race.
We are creating them to be like us.
So you say why program it for anything else, well, they haven't have they..........
There trying to achieve a human level of robotic.
There doing exactly what you say, not programming it for anything but they want it to do, and thats basically, 'go learn' .
How do you figure a robot will only ever be able to do what its programmed to do ?
Unless such a robot has programming that allows it to evolve on it's own, it's only going to be able to do what we tell it.
If you give a robot the ability to evolve on it's own, there's no telling what it might choose to become.
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Originally Posted by jackripped
You can argue that the original code that started it before it became self aware can be modified to change its behavior, but it will not take away from the fact that the robot/computer is self aware can now make decisions for itself, and you can argue that robots/computers will never feel emotions, but its a flawed argument, because where did human feelings of emotion evolve from ? No-one really understands it.
Whilst it's an unknown aspect, I don't think robots would ever feel emotion like we do though. I'm not saying they wouldn't feel emotion, they could. It would just be different to them. With or without a program, you can't 'code' emotion into something. It's far more complex than that.
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Originally Posted by jackripped
If you could have a bio mechanical body 1000 times more durable and just as sensitive with touch, as the human body, would you ? l would in a heart beat. If l could move into a mechanized body with the same sensory inputs as a human body l would jump at it.
In the end we will probably put our computer programs on some sort of bio chip anyways, and that itself could lead to a better understanding of sentient life, and may give us some breakthrough.
I'm not so sure I like the idea of having my consciousness removed from my body. You'd first have to find it. I'd settle for anything that could improve my body, but I don't like the idea of being taken out of my body. That's just weird.
Because the more general a tool the more use you can get out of it. Why have something that can just cure cancer - why not have it able to design new microchips too? Why not have it able to translate languages? You can make a lot more money out of a general tool than a specific one.
An AI capable of devising a cure for cancer before the world's scientists could probably solve any other problem asked of it, if provided with a sufficient information, conditionals etc. But even then, it's only capable of doing what it's been programmed to do - devising means of achieving a goal using available resources. To even think about disobeying its operators or its programming, there would have to be something else built-in to compel it to do so.
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And the more general you make it, the more people you're prepared to give one too, the smarter it has to be in order to interpret very vague commands. Something that's just given an order to go cure cancer could conceivably be a hell of a lot smarter than the person giving the orders - even to the point of being sentient.
A progression towards greater intelligence doesn't equate to a progression towards humanlike thoughts and behaviour - which are motivated by a lot more than just knowledge and ability. A computer can be "smarter" in the sense that one can sometimes play chess better than Garry Kasparov, without having any kind of self-directing properties beyond what its creators intended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackripped
What if the instruction to be carried out is LOVE ?
What if the mission is marriage ?
And your question is a little vague, a robot designed to look and work like a human, could do everything a human could do and more, and faster and stronger and more endurance, so your question '' why programmer it with anything other than the tasks its needs to do'' is pretty much answered like this, we humans want to create a sentient robotic being that can be as good or better than our own bodies and be so good, you cant tell its human or robot, thats what we are striving for, and why, because it can do all the jobs humans can do, not just one its specifically designed for, take a robot out of a car factory and ask it to make you a coffee, see my point ?
But if a robot was programmed to think and act exactly like a human, it wouldn't work in your factory or make your coffee just because you told it to, any more than a human would. It would do what it wanted to do, or it would demand something in return. They'd all form a union and demand higher pay for their superior services, or something. So if it came to doing jobs like that, wouldn't unthinking obedience be better?
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We cant program that, what it is to have conciseness, its something learned, something taught, something evolved something not quite understood, but having a sentient self aware intelligent robot could be our next step for survival as a human race.
We are creating them to be like us.
So you say why program it for anything else, well, they haven't have they..........
There trying to achieve a human level of robotic.
There doing exactly what you say, not programming it for anything but they want it to do, and thats basically, 'go learn' .
Advancements in robotics ensuring the survival of the human race (in some form) would be the opposite of AIs destroying humanity. Remember, I'm not saying sentient, humanlike AIs won't ever be built, but that we won't be able to treat them in the same way we treat computers now... in other words, as totally obedient and predictable machines.
Spoiler:
Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father.
Last edited by Emperor Benedictine; January 23rd, 2011 at 07:16 AM.
Really, and what if you cant tell the difference between a robot and a human, when there that good and you cant tell the difference, where do you stand then ?
There are going to be robots one day that humans cannot tell the difference between, hell they may even be computorised human bodies, bio robots, what then ?
Its all good and well to have your programmed , ''do as your told'' version of robot, but this discussion is more so about when AI becomes self aware.
We already have ''do as your told'' robots what we need is the next generation of robots.
And we already have self evolving programs.
It really is just a matter of time before we crack this.
But in response to something jackripped said: Yes, robots can only do what they are programmed to do and nothing more. You program a robot to learn and think for itself, tada its self aware, but only because you programmed it that way. Essentially the same for humans. What are we any more than just flesh and bone controlled by microscopic organisms (them themselves made of chemicals) and electronic signals? Except we can reproduce, which is the only thing that separates us from a perfectly sentient droid, because metal can't have sex and that's a good thing because we all saw Terminator 3.
And when your bored ?
A computer that is self aware is going to get bored because is so intelligent if you lock it away, and no matter how much it understands time, it cannot manipulate it, and would always have a redundancy clock built into the back round to account for the time, because even if you can stop or control it in some way, it still needs to be measured relative to us and our time for it to know when to wake back up and stay in sync. So no a computer will not manipulate time itself.It will only manipulate its own internal time, which really means little to us. And to be able to do even that , it must have a sync to our universal time, a clock outside of itself, so it can tell how long its been asleep and when to wake up.
So in effect, by default, it cannot even manipulate internal time properly.
Strangely enough many people have a sleep cycle which does alter their sense of time.
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