More police tomfoolery in the land of the free.

[Mephistopheles]

Originally Posted by Admiral Donutz

This shows that the guy was not an innocent passer by. But still, as above what other options were tried (available) before they decided to knock the guy down with a car (which could mean the guy would hit the curb and break his neck among other possible injuries).

But indeed, a video can't be trusted as telling the whole story due to possible manipulation, poor timing (not taping the start of the incident or what triggered the incident), the view point etc. It can however raise attention and awareness about potential abuse which need further investigation. Tapes can be used as evidence in combination with eye withness reports and the like (if the reports are trustworthy and it seems unlikely the tape has been editted in any shape or form).

I agree. I don't know how far the police in that state is allowed to ram an armed suspect. In Germany it would only be legal in case of self-defence.

On the other hand, a situation with an armed suspect who is not complying with commands from the police is always very stressful and upsetting for the officers involved.

I think I am actually not a very aggressive person. But I remember that I nearly lost my self-control during an arrest when a violent drunk suspect bit into my arm and spat into my face. I was about to punch him directly into the face and only stopped in time because a female medic was present.

[Admiral Donutz]

Originally Posted by Mephistopheles

I agree. I don't know how far the police in that state is allowed to ram an armed suspect. In Germany it would only be legal in case of self-defence.

On the other hand, a situation with an armed suspect who is not complying with commands from the police is always very stressful and upsetting for the officers involved.

I think I am actually not a very aggressive person. But I remember that I nearly lost my self-control during an arrest when a violent drunk suspect bit into my arm and spat into my face. I was about to punch him directly into the face and only stopped in time because a female medic was present.

Indeed, I can imagen that it cna be frustrating but the whole "eye for an eye" approach would only cause more problems (the situation escalates into a full fight with possible serious injuries or even death).

The more that those that work for the state are supposed to act responsibly, maturily, orderly etc. because they are meant to give a public example on behaviour/morals, showing they can eb trusted with the powers granted to them (no abuse of power) and are there to serve the people.

A provoking reaction from law enforcement and other such forces (or act that can easily be seen as a provakation) can easily worsen a situation and hurt public support and image. If I'm spoken to by any authoirty (doesn't need to be a police officer, can be a guard, staff etc.) I'd like to be adressed respectfully and I'll show them the same respect back. If I think they come down on me in an uncomfortable way (you feel like a gestapo agent is targeting you abd abusing his power or acusing you of things completly out of the blue), or am being shouted at while for doing something wrong while I'm not aware (I accidently entered something that is off limits for example) I'll dig (as we say in the Netherlands) dig my feet in the ground. I'll be a lot less cooperative, possibly even trying not to cooperate at all if it seems valid and legal to do so thinking "fuck you, bugger off you because-I-am-in-uniform-I-can-poke-my-nose-around-in-whatever-I-want").

De-escalation training is given for a very good reason.

Sort-of on topic: About a year or so ago in Amsterdam ( ? ) there was an paramedic who was called to an person that was passed out (in a sauna building?) , but the paramedic refused to help the guy because the victem was a homosexual. He left the scene and the poor sod died... not sure what they did against that paramedic but this caused quite a negative response towards the A'dam paramedics, who i turn were upset that the public jumped on the fence and they felt unsafe. Demanding from the Amsterdam major that he did something about it to ensure their safety. Or something along those lines, my memory is a bit fuzzy. ALl I could think was "DO you find it strange that people are pissed off at the paramedic service and shout things in anger at them? I do not, even though individual paramedics can't be held responsible for what went on... responding negatively may only make things worse....".

As for drunk people: I know that the state they are in ain't an excuse but it does make people who normally wouldn't act agressively or disrespectful , to do so. They may use physical or mental (cursing) violence against others who "get in their way" (which thus affects law enforcement and resque forces especially) while they will regret it when they sober up and realize what a mess they made. It's indeed tempted to punish/get back at those people while they are in that state but generally it's better to take approperiate action when the person is in a state were he can be reasoned with (propper dialog). Incase they are still violent I'd punish them harder then when they show clear regrets. In the later case you might evne decide to forget about the incident if the situation seems to call/allow for it.

Edit: Also, rules of engagement (laws) about which options may or may not be used by authority may sometimes work against them or make it more difficult to resolve the situation. In the incident of the armed man who was knocked down with a car this might have ended the situation faster then calling in a policedog (or other solution) would but it also makes citizens defenseless against abusive or amateur/improper/stupid behaviour from said authority. The world has both well intended citizens and authoirty figures, and those who are less well intended (abusive, aggresive etc.) , to be on the save side it is better to side with those without authority to protect them against the "stronger" power in a conflict. This may sometimes works against valid actions by authorities though but this is still better then an authority figure being able to abuse his power and get away with it.

[Admiral Donutz]

Speaking of abusive behaviour and other things that just seem wrong. I remember:

- Last year or so a female police officer who was not prosecuted when she got involved in an accident with her policevan. A girl was seriously injured when she crossed a road and the policevan collided with her. The policevan did carry the blue lights but not the sirene. She was not prosecuted, without further comment on the reason why. The officer explained that she was distracted for a secondwhile she approached the crossing, as she tried to locate the button for the sirene. Her colleague next to her (front passenger seat) couldn't assist in operating the sirene and light instaltion as he had no knowledge of such. Source: AD.nl - Binnenland - 'Elisa's leven overhoop na aanrijding'

This frustrated me since:
- If you don't carry both signal and lights you are not a prioity vehicle thus any accident you caused is automatically your fault. If an other person doesn't notice you because your lack of propper signals or refuses to grant you right of way (which would be their right) you are to blame.
- How hard could it be to tell the person next to her were to find the buttons for controlling the sirenes and lights? Shouldn't that be one of the first things to do when you are towing along a newbie or a person who is new to a certain vehicle? Just incase the driver can not get his/her eye off the road and her co-rider has to operate certain installations...
- If the co-rider really can't help you out, and the driver has to do this him/herself then (s)he should be aware of the danger of not watching the road (especially at high speeds, i crowded town centres etc.!) and slow down or stop so it becomes safe to do whatever you need to do. Things like it being illegal to use a operate a phone that isn't handsfree behind the wheel were introduced for a reason.
- Regardless of why the accident accured, the policecar did not had right of way... thus the officer is at fault, to blame and should be punished accordingly such as being fined or whatever else the punishment for causing a road accident is.

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And how about people that see possible abuse of power? Granted they may be wrong and not be able to judge the situation as they "don't know all the facts". But sometimes you see clear abuse of power. Such as when you see a policecar work his way through traffic with sirenes and lights, only to see the officers stop at an outlet to buy food/drinks/snacks/books/whatever. Which makes you want to fine them at the very least. It's just not social, we all want to get from A to B smoothly and as fast as possible, because you got those fancy bells and lights doesn't mean you cna use them for personal gain...

Or when you see a policecar driving through red, againt traffic, exceeding the speed limit and such things without them carying lights and sirenes. Their ofcourse is a slim chanche that they actually are onroute to an incident but don't carry their signals for some reason (stealth) but there is a better chanche of them just knowing they can easily get away with it and wont'end up paying fines of ignoring red lights. Such actions should be fined as normal (the officer himself needing to pay the fine out of his own pocket) and incase of repeated violations the person needs to be punished in other ways, with the ultimate risk of being fired. Those violations may be "small" but they do hurt the reputation of law enforcement as a whole.

[Badha1rday]

Originally Posted by Mephistopheles

I agree. I don't know how far the police in that state is allowed to ram an armed suspect. In Germany it would only be legal in case of self-defence.

On the other hand, a situation with an armed suspect who is not complying with commands from the police is always very stressful and upsetting for the officers involved.

I think I am actually not a very aggressive person. But I remember that I nearly lost my self-control during an arrest when a violent drunk suspect bit into my arm and spat into my face. I was about to punch him directly into the face and only stopped in time because a female medic was present.

Hey, self defense right? I'd be pissed too if someone could have potentially infected me with some disease.

Too much force used on the suspect with the knife. He was walking around in circles, not really going toward anyone.

The EMT. I'm assuming he had the lights going, since he was going to the hospital. Why the fuck would anyone even try to stop a speeding ambulance?

The cop slamming the guy into the wall. A simple body tackle would have sufficed. Not a full-on shoulder tackle. It looked like he was trying to actually hurt the guy. I liked how he dragged him around a while before putting the cuffs on his "unconscious" body.

[Admiral Donutz]

Originally Posted by BadHairDẵy

The EMT. I'm assuming he had the lights going, since he was going to the hospital. Why the fuck would anyone even try to stop a speeding ambulance?

They don't do just emergency rides, they also transfer people to the hospital that are not in a state of emergency. If you broke a bone for example or when you need to be transfered from one hospital (aid post) to the other and your condition is stable (but you being required to lay down so they can't use a bus/taxi). The video discription says the ambulance didn't use it's signals so...

The cop slamming the guy into the wall. A simple body tackle would have sufficed. Not a full-on shoulder tackle. It looked like he was trying to actually hurt the guy. I liked how he dragged him around a while before putting the cuffs on his "unconscious" body.

Haven't seen any dragging around, only a silly repeat of five seconds of footage (the slamming into the guy). I was wondering if the news showed some more footage from before and after that very moment. I mean, after perhaps one repeat (for those slower people that are like "err what just happend there?") you don't need to show it again and again and again?

speaking of which, sometimes they show persuit programs from american TV which besides a Dutch narrator are left intact. The few times I watch those programs I always notice how they take an event of a few seconds and loop it atleast four times: a car driving across a crossing, barely missing a truck, which is looped 4-6 times... video continues, other loop is shown and on the end of the video (arrest/chrash) it's looped endlessly till the narrator is done talking... it annoys the heck out of me. I saw it the first time alright. Ugh. :lol:

[Badha1rday]

The full video shows the cop getting down next the the guy and pulling on his arm, dragging him around to cuff him.

[NiteStryker]

I love people who sit back and critize actions of other people all the time, themselves never having been in a situation where you dont know who is good or bad and you may not be able to go home that night.

(1st video) See my above statement. Ever see SWAT standoffs? Everybody is arrested and sorted, you make any actions, police dont know who is innocent or not.

(2nd video) He resisted arrest. You dont do that. If you are right, let the judge tell the policeman that.

(3rd video) Obviously a prolonged standoff and the guy refused to surrender after multiple warnings.

You ever see police chase videos? (world scariest police chases, worlds wildest police videos...etc). If you dont stop when they tell you to, they can use multiple techniques to take you down and its all legit. Ive seen them PIT cars until they flip onto the roofs, ive seen cops hit running "suspects" with their cars doing a good 30 mph or faster.


pwned. And I have no sympathy for him either. If anything, the cop should have gone faster.

They dont ambush private citizens who are doing nothing wrong, draw weapons, tell them to get down, and them pin them against a pole.

Bottom line...listen to the cops. Plain and simple. They have a hard as shit job dealing with shitbags of society, and i have never seen a case where a cop just starts running over random innocent strangers on the sidewalk.

[Dragonelf68]

In all the videos except the EMT One, the cops followed proper procedure. From what I understand, you NEVER pull over an ambulance bringing someone to the hospital except in the most extreme circumstances. You pull one over, see that they have someone, and follow them. Then you sort shit out. I'd like to know what happened to the dickhead cops in that video. Does anyone have a follow up on it?

[Nemmerle]

I'm sure their squad car's ESP computer told them all the convenient facts before they pulled them over. Just as your computer's convenient ESP is telling you the situation in which they were pulled over so you can decide whether it was in policy or not.

[Mr.Funsocks]

That police officer should be fired.