'Gifted' Children.
 

I was reading an article in a magazine recently about academically gifted children, about how their happiness and quality of life varies compared to 'normal' children. Also how different countries cater to the needs of their gifted children and this fact surprised me; According to the magazine, Finland has no private schools, nor is any there any research on the gifted or any real facilities for them. There is almost no separation between them and 'normal' children. However, internationally Finnish children come top in Mathematics on average.

The US has 100's of establishments for gifted children, and opportunities for children to be separated and have specialized education. They came 27th internationally in the same poll.

So what do you think is the best method for furthering those gifted children? Or perhaps they should not receive any extra attention at all? Interested to hear your opinions.

What is 'gifted' apart from a label? A slightly higher IQ on a test that means very little; an affinity for a certain subject; a skill in completing standardised tests? Take these people, give them specialised schooling, the expectations of everyone around them to succeed, the inevitable labelling of them even in systems where specialised schooling is not around - a true comparison between the base potential of gifted people and other people isn't really possible within our current social environment. I've yet to see anything to prove that these people have a greater potential than anyone else. An affinity for a certain thing or a higher IQ score doesn't mean much; even success at school can hardly be put down to any innate factor. With the current lack of reliable evidence I don't believe that these people necessarily have any greater potential than anyone else.

That in mind the issue that I would choose to address is not furthering the station of a few gifted people, whose areas of expertise and ways of thinking have already made them well suited to our current standards of intelligence, but in addressing the stunning neglect of most other children.
If we all have the same potential then another way of looking at it would be that everyone is gifted, the problem: that many of those gifts go to waste in a poor education system. Don't get me wrong, some people are as thick as pigshit, but by and large they're that way because we've made them that way. Ultimately we should be helping everyone go as far as they can go; not just a few who are lucky enough to display some trick or talent at a young age and be labelled as gifted.

It's a double edged sword really, one side being that the children will "develop" their gifts faster than they would in a regular school, the other side is that they will be robbed of a normal childhood spent with normal children.

Not to mention issues that could arrive when the kid just wants to play in the woods, but is "persuaded" by his or her parents to stay at home almost all day and every day and practise math, partly due to the investment they made in the program and somewhat misguided attempts at deciding what is best for them.

And i agree with Nemmerle, there is alot of potential out there that is simply ignored, or destroyed by detrimental social situations and popular culture.

Some good points there. I think a stupid/slow person who is dragged through education-systems made for above-average students will profit quite a bit from that as long as his teachers consider him to be intelligent.

Telling a student that he is dumb is a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

My cousin is one of those gifted children. He was smarter than all his teachers in both middle and high school. In kindergarten he could identify various species of snakes. He went to a regular school (a crappy ghetto one honestly) and he still turned out kinda weird, but thats his mothers fault and partially because he has hemophilia. Anyway, I still believe that sending a "gifted" child to a regular school is better, not for academic reasons but for social reasons. My cousin was kept from having a social life so he is very introverted and as a result all he has is his intelligence, no friends, no girlfriend, nothing...
There is also a balance between EQ and IQ which should be maintained and if balanced correctly results in successful person. Someone with a low EQ may very well have the potential to succeed but not the personality or attitude to do so. EQ can be changed in various ways which may or may not help you.

you sound jealous

You sound like another kid who thinks they know what people are thinking because they've got a few tired emotional terms hidden up their sleeve somewhere.
Considering the life I've led that emotion really wouldn't make sense here, not that you really know anything about my life. But if they make you comfortable I'll leave you to your delusions of empathy or whatever else it was you were trying to do.

I was in a gifted and talented program all through grade school, but my favorite part is still 4th grade, my teacher thought I was retarded, so sent me to the local state college to get tested, which pretty much revealed that I was quite intelligent. I just don't like dealing with people who are wrong and refuse to reconsider and/or have control over my grade. This might have not been a problem if I was in a normal class, but I don't regret it.

I think my life so far can kinda be explained in one sentence: you can learn a lot of random-ass information if you don't bother with a social life.
This might apply to all "gifted" people who are set aside, I don't know.

Why call them, "gifted"? :Puzzled: They are in no way, "special" or "gifted"... they're retarded!

If gifted children are anything like me they'll get burnout doing something thats too easy. I need variety and a challenge in my life. If i'm not getting enough of either I'll look for something new.

He must've hit a nerve.

Oh god, the nerve, it tickles so bad. =p

That's because the very high quality of the Finnish public education system in general which is made up from national teaching plan & regulations, competent teachers, supporting all schools by the government instead of separating them into good & bad schools, giving proper funding for schools & institutions and taking care of "problem cases" & less gifted ones while giving room for bright students to succeed. And it's almost totally "free", paid by tax money: education is the key for individual's and society's success. People must be given equal educational chances and all students are taken care of while giving room for gifted ones (those who have higher IQ and/or are more hardworking & punctual).

Though Finland has no private schools we have a couple of elite high-schools for the most gifted students but no top universities like Harvard or Oxford. The details I provided in my last paragraph are the reason why the Finnish education system does so well in international surveys of learning results: students are there to learn, not to have fun and creating social relations merely comes as a side-product. Football universities, strong individual schools, splitting the education system in half and not giving adequate funding are not the ways to go.

Have 'em make toys like all the other little bastards!

Yeah, they do, and a lot of them get into drugs. Places like MIT (where many gifted kids go) have special coke days right before finals. =\

me or him?
Well I'm not gonna lie both my parents studied psychology (yet my dad ended up working with computers and networking) so I do know some terms, plus I inherited some of my fathers perceptiveness. But there is no need to get so defensive if what I said isn't true; but I wouldn't know whether or not it is.
Not sure if that is true or not but it could be related to what I said before about EQ.

You guys should pay a little more attention. The thread isn't using gifted as a euphemism for mentally handicapped children, it's describing kids of higher than average intelligence. So no, the 'gifted' children that this thread concerns aren't retarded in any form of the word (except on occasion socially).

my apologies that i didnt read all your posts people.

One stuff makes room for the other.

Gifted people are indeed gifted with a superior advantage.

Like you have people that have an extremely good sense of hearing but they have a very bad sight.

People that are soo damn smart they can calculate in a few seconds behind 0,00000000000000000001. but they are maybe retarded in communication.

Really, its how you look at it. Some guys only want to f*ck girls but don give a shit for school stuff. So one has a giftability he can attract girls like madness but he's kinda stupid on math, science level. For that person its really a gift of heaven because the stuff he likes, he has!

Mmh strange post and bad sentences in the end, you know im from belgium!

Ah, allright my apologies. The use of euphemism brings up another debate. =p

I'm going to warn you right now, this post is going to be VERY long, but I hope that it will give some insight to those who don't understand the point of view from someone in such a situation; don't understand why those "smart" kids never did well in school and were the worst behaved. I'd appreciate it if you didn't act immature about this either. Last time I posted anything serious of this nature it fell on childish, immature eyes and only resulted in ridicule. I'm trusting you to not do the same.

The reason many of those who are tagged as "gifted" end up doing terribly in life is not necessarily because they aren't placed in an environment in which they can learn to properly socialize. In my case, I'm Autistic; I have Asperger's Syndrome. Those who are like me do not WANT to socialize like the typical child. They CAN'T socialize. Not in the typical way. Other children don't understand this, and ultimately, don't get along with those who are "gifted"

I functioned in such a way that I, generally speaking, didn't fit in or get along well with peers my age. I thrived, however, with the older crowd. I've never been a fan of social interaction, and thats a blatant throwback to the fact that I have AS. Contrary to popular belief, a good majority of these kids aren't just really smart "normal" kids. I honestly believe most of them show forms of various mental disabilities.

I know, its hard to draw the concept of a person with a disability actually functioning, mentally, better than their peers. I was expelled from public schools, and my court case helped pave the way for the new methods of working with, not against, other kids who went through the same struggles as I did. School districts changed to a more proactive role in supporting these children rather than taking punitive measures every time they acted out.

I can honestly say from my experience in school that it was probably one of the most traumatic, terrible experiences in my life. I could not function like everyone else in my class, I tried to reach out to them, find ways to get along, but it only caused strife, and when I lashed out emotionally as a reaction, I would be punished for it. Nobody knew what to do to help me, they didn't want to help me, the easiest thing was to say "Go home" and call my parents.

My dad used to punish me for acting out in school; not doing my work, and only my mom ever truly understood what was really going on. I was always on the verge of emotional breakdowns, constantly wondering whether taking my own life would just make it better. I wouldn't have to deal with the constant struggles of fitting in, living up to my dad's expectations, and making people proud.

As time drew on, they ran out of ideas (they ran through the usual "oh, its just a phase" type of plans, with counseling and such. Like I said, at this time, there wasn't any method to work with kids like me.) and decided to expel me. It was at this point in my life that things got the worst. I was confused, scared, and unable to understand why the people who were supposed to help me were suddenly turning on me, throwing me to another, more strict school.

I rode the storm. Rather, I WAS the storm. I attacked teachers and students, I exploded with emotional rage. The turmoil that had built up over the years took me to a primal stage of sorts. I reached a point where I was literally unable to control myself, I reacted out of anger, not rationality. Nothing mattered, and when these times arose, I felt like it was a life or death situation, and the people who were there to help were actually trying to kill me. I remember it with great detail, I remember how horrible it was. Teachers tried to scare me straight by pretending to file charges against me for my acts, they tried rewarding me for my good behavior, they tried separating me, putting me into classes with people I connected with, the works.

Nothing changed, I only grew worse. I found myself thinking suicidal thoughts again, and my medications only made it worse. Medications never made it better, always worse, and I learned over time that I can't rely on medication to control me. I learned to control myself, I learned about why I did the things I did, why I felt the way I felt, the reason that I couldn't communicate freely like everyone else.

I never did manage to function on the same level in the basic academics like my peers. I was in a school where everyone was riddled with emotional problems, nobody was stable. I was horrible in math, HATED math. I never got past algebra 1 by the time I graduated because I just couldn't do it. The work overwhelmed me. When the teacher said "do this" I just looked at it and felt this sense of impossibility in the task bestowed upon me. I just could not do it.

This same feeling carried on throughout all of my classes. The only time I truly excelled was in all of the science classes and history. Outside of that, I just couldn't do it. I never did homework, never took notes. I passed my classes through my tests. I didn't pay attention to the teacher and half-assed my way through school at this point. I felt like I could be doing something so much more interesting, like playing video games or sleeping. I was depressed.

In fact, looking back at these times, I can't think of a time that I wasn't depressed. Many people figure that being smart is a good thing; it is, but not in the same regard as being smart because you have a disability.

Ironically, after all of this, I graduated a whole year early, but because of the crippling social anxiety that I feel in social situations, I chose not to attend my graduation ceremony at my home highschool.

In retrospect, I'm glad that I was born with AS. If I wasn't, I'd not be the person I am today. Its made me stronger, its made me a better person. I've grown to a level that nobody thought I'd ever reach. Looking back, I see why. Its hard to imagine that I've changed so much in a few years. I've turned around 200%. It fills me with a sense of amazement and satisfaction knowing that I went from a kid boucing from suspension to suspension, to an adult working their dream career in the Veterinary field, fulfilling my dreams, living the life nobody thought I'd ever have.

I still have the reminders of my past, the scars, both physical and emotional, constantly gnawing at me, reminding me of days past, the times when things weren't great, when things were so bad, that it made me consider suicide. I am not afraid to openly admit I've never had a girlfriend, either. Even when I was capable of being rational in my later years, the social anxiety was just so much that I couldn't ask girls on dates, none of that. Now, in a forced social interaction, most people notice one thing: I'm quiet. Nobody suspects that I have AS though, in fact most people don't believe me and think I'm lying.

However, even though I can force myself to function if I have to, I cannot interact the same way as a typical person would. I don't share the same emotional bonds, not openly anyways. While its been shown that those with Autism tend to share a stronger bond with their guardians and those they trust, they do not show it the same way as a normal person. I'm no different. I don't show my love, my gratitude, my happiness the same way the rest of you can. I subconciously shield myself, hiding my feelings, only allowing the bare minimum to get the general idea of what I'm feeling across.

People don't understand that, and THAT is why gifted people rarely function as well as others. They cannot show people what they're feeling as simply as everyone else. Its an internal struggle as much as it is a struggle with society to be understood.


Sure, we're smart, but no matter what, we'll always be inferior socially. Thats the plain and simple of it. Granted, you may think all of this is horse shit because I type decently, but I do communicate better in text. I don't communicate anywhere near as well in face to face or on the phone. I'm very sarcastic and emphasize making jokes wherever I can. It helps me feel more comfortable in the social situation, and the same goes for a great deal of those who also have autism. They try to be funny, its not because of a need to be the center of attention, in fact, thats the last thing we want, we want to be accepted, to be seen as one of you. The outbursts are a sort of this, an attempt to be seen, heard. Unfortunately, even now, it falls on deaf ears because the people who dedicate their lives to helping us still don't understand what its like. Nobody ever will.

Every gifted person is unique in thier diagnoses and spectrum.

Being "gifted" isn't some kind of blessing, if anything, when I was first labelled "gifted", I see it as the beginning of the terrible things that followed. I'm glad though, that I was born with it. I'd never have asked for anything else. It helped me learn about myself, and even though I harbor a significant distrust of others and social anxiety, I hope to make my mark in the world by doing something good. I hope to be understood and accepted, and show that I too, am capable of doing something useful.

they're children, just because they seem to be "smarter" than others doesn't mean the should be treated better than others

Are you saying that smarter students shouldn't get more developed & tailored education than normal students?

That would seem to be a perfect waste of the smarter students' talents.

is it fair that the smart kids get better treatment than kids less intelligent, schoolwork is memorazation, not show of inteligance

"Better" treatment? If you want to say that, yes. Above average people should be given above average training/care, as above average people don't always get along well with normal people(using words that the normal people don't use, defeating the kids at Scrabble with it, getting beaten with sticks because of it)

Schoolwork is memorization? Granted, that's what schools tend to be, but that isn't what they should be. Schools should teach people how to learn, and give them enough information to be able to function. Gifted students tend to be able to complete the tasks they are assigned quicker than normal students, and I think there is a saying about idle hands...

I agree with Crazy Wolf here. It's in everyone's interests to give more developed & tailored teaching for smarter students than keep them in the same phase with normal students:

* Smarter students learn better and more while their teaching isn't hindered by less able students.
* Teachers can teach better & with less stress as they know their students' specific needs & skills.
* Normal students learn in their own phase without having to hurry up due to smarter students.
* Enterprises & institutions get highly educated people who bring high tax income for the society.

The point should be that ALL students are taken care of and given equal chances while the ones who succeed should be let to do so. Anything else is a dangerous waste of potential which will not cost for just individuals but also for enterprises and society as a whole. There's no such thing as total equality nor there should be, people are inherently different.

Public education is a waste of time in the United States. I learned more English by talking shit in video games then I did in class.

What irritates me the most about public education is that it wastes so much time trying to teach students to be socially interactive.

The concept of a 'gifted' student is somewhat de facto, for I do not believe any one mind is limited to it's intellectual capabilities. Numerous scientific investigations have gone into the advancement of intelligence through practical means, not genetics and luck.

My interest in intelligence comes from the intellectual need to improve upon myself. That said, why should we place certain people in a pointless social class - 'gifted'? How do they benefit, exactly?

How do you classify an above average person? Via IQ tests? If you've ever done any research into the subject, you would know that an IQ test is not a real measure of intelligence, but simply a measure of abstract reasoning and logic. As far as the mind goes, logic is completely seperate from base intelligence. (Self awareness, emotion, survival instincts, et cetera)

Yes, there are those with a higher perception of space and logic - but that isn't to say they would benefit more by going to a different school. All educational institutes should allow for individual variety.

There should be a base educational system, representing core knowledge. Mathemetics, english and science - that should be it. From there, an individual academic program should be designed and applied to every student addressing his or her abilities and goals. If this were the case, there would be no 'gifted' class, only a class of the highly perceptive and logical.

Point: There are no 'gifted' students, all minds are capable of the same intellectual capacity, though some may be more efficient. Of course, there are genetic offsets that seperate certain people, what most would call 'mentally retarded'. Though, it's somewhat irrelevant. (That's definitely a discussion for a different time.)

There are plenty of tests to determine some people's aptitude, some people score higher in all categories, or are proficient at learning in all categories.

"There are no 'gifted' students?" That's just wrong, and you know it. Some students don't get the development opportunities other students do, and these are generally considered the normal ones. Then there are the ones like me, who were read to as a kid, went to preschool, could use a computer by 4, did activities that stimulated brain development, or just lucked out in the genetics department. These kids got better brain development, which means more computing power, logical skills, etc., all things that would make a school tending to the lowest common denominator a poor choice for them. Plus, little kids hate people who do better then them in any way. The quiet kids who ace the spelling tests are jealous of the kids who are really good at kickball, the kids who play really good kickball hate losing to the smart kids(who might not know enough at this point to realize that keeping their mouths shut might be a good idea) at spelling competitions, etc. Think of how much more well-adjusted people would be if they didn't suffer from an inferiority complex as a child, or weren't beaten up at school for being better than their peers in academic pursuits.

Solution to problem: "gifted" children should form clubs with each other (or something like that)
all human brains are capable of high "intelligence", some just use their brain more than others

What do you think causes and encourages this competetive attitude in academics? That's right, the SYSTEM! Academics should NOT be competetive. It should be straight forward and simple - something all can benefit from in the exact same way. Private schools, are of course, another matter - they have the right to do whatever they want - but public education should not cater to the socially inclined or declined, nor the 'gifted' - what a vague and de facto term.

Gotta say Relander, very nice.

The education system here in Australia is exactly what you describe as wrong. We have a Private and Public School system, a very small minority of students attend Private schools, yet those school gain a vast majority of the funding from the Government, leaving little or nothing to public school systems (many have problems affording decent air-conditioning / fan systems).

My personal experience is that those who are educated through a public school system gain a better learning. Not just academically, but socially. At a private school you're surrounded by the typical same persona's and aren't as open to people as you are in the public school system. Thus, learning to act better socially and so on.

Agreed as well. Wish Australia had something similar to Finland. But hey, the Government enjoys raising University fees and increasing the difficulty of the final school years. Not our fault they don't realise they are crippling a generation for the sake of limiting intelligence.

[/end rant] =p

No. People naturally compete against each other. It is a lot more obvious during adolescence, but competition is what made evolution work.

Keep in mind, Social Darwinism being involved with evolution is only theory; as is evolution it's self.

So what exactly is the point of intelligence if we can't even overcome our emotions (thus, Survival of the Fittest), and work towards unity? I believe competition in academics is one of the most pointless ideas yet. Everyone should be given the exact same opportunities, and that includes the chance to exceed one's own intellectual limits that almost appear to be placed by the social hierarchy within schools themselves.

It is -wrong- to classifiy intelligence within social structures, as is giving the so-called 'gifted' more opportunity than 'average' students.

P.S. I use the terms 'gifted' and 'average' strictly in theory, and against my own good judgement.

By the way, when you said that "gifted" or "smarter" students would talk fancy words to less "intelligent" ones, you are wrong, that is a stereotype created for telivison (same with the nerds, and jocks, and prepies)

Well, that's not entirely true. Those with a more diverse vocabulary tend to intimidate others. It's not a sin to know a lot of words, it's just a habit by some to use more descriptive words.

I am guessing by this post that you either didn't go to elementary school, didn't test above average in anything academic, or just didn't pay attention.

Flame, much?

Perception is a powerful tool, do not misjudge it with biased statements such as that.

I've been to 2 seperate elemenarty schools (I moved) there was nothing in either that was suggested on TV, I get honors I'll let you know!
The middle school I went to was nothing like the ones on TV. if the TV show writers wanted an acurate middle school settings, they would include swearing, not mentaly ill teachers, smokers, assholes, whores, gays, and lesbians

So you never beat on a kid or were beaten or threatened or harassed because of academic aptitude? You must be in a much nicer environment than me, or anyone I've come into contact with.

I love the way most of the posters here are trying to act smart now. Ha it makes me laugh inside. Typical insecure people.

Well he isn't wrong, a lot of movies/tv shows do stereotype...

I had a mentally ill teacher, I knew smokers, most of the kids were assholes (and still are), there were a few "whorish" girls, there were kids who were gay but didn't know it/didn't develop yet.

Shut up that just doesn't make sense...

That's nice, but flaming and acting like an eight-year old won't make you look intelligent.

I have personally never witnessed another be harassed due to his/her academic achievements. That's an overly used cliche', to be honest.

Never said I was trying to sound intelligent, is it you who is though?

Rebuttal: There's a difference between trying to act intelligent, and trying to act more intelligent then others. Way to take the thread off-topic, by the way.

You made an accusation against all the arguement contributors, stating that people were simply argueing to sound 'smart'. Well, I think you couldn't be more full of horse $&#! and need to take you're 'lol, dumbasses' attitude somewhere else.

It may be overused, but just because you haven't witnessed it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen much in high school, but it is quite common in grade and middle school.

One thing, everybody is given their opportunities at school. You go to school, and you learn. If you learn better, and are better at getting work done efficiently, you are a better student. It's not about your small changes in IQ, etc. It's about the will to learn.

Putting certain people in schools that fit their needs isn't a bad thing. It's the same idea as an honors class. If you are smarter or more interested in learning, you go there. You wouldn't put everyone in the school an honors class, as not everyone would keep up.

People that are better at subjects should be pushed more, not kept behind. And people that are worse than average at subjects shouldn't be pushed with impossible workloads. It's not about singling people out, it's about fitting peoples' needs.

If you are behind in school, and in lower classes, you're not stuck in an abyss. I kind of feel like its really just you care or you don't care. If your willing to learn, you'll learn the material in your class, and maybe next year you'll get an honors course. If there are people that are behind, keeping them in tougher courses is stupid. They aren't going to pull ahead, as the class is tough. They are probably going to give up, and fall behind, as they don't have the will to learn.

And everyone, can we stay on topic please?

I find that to be more of a bottleneck then anything. Sure, some students get to 'say' they were in 'Honors', but what relevance does it put towards their education? They learn the same material as everyone else, they just have some extra homework. Then they move onto the next course, which is the same as everyone's else. They speed to the finish line, but then they have to wait for everyone to catch up before they can cross it.

Honors is a waste of budget in my opinion.

They get to learn things that the people who weren't in Honors classes don't get to learn, they get to discuss more complex problems, that is what "Honors" should be.

I go to a private school, and we don't have much in the way of "honors". I guess I'm one of the "gifted", and lack the social skills...:( lol. I enjoy being smart and all, and don't use big words with people to intimidate them. Sometimes I have to use smaller words, but hey, some people just don't know what "hello"means, gotta say "wazup" or whatever it is now. Heh. By the way, the flaming? Ya, stop, just stop, there's really no need. Life can be difficult enough with out the "Your just jealous!" and "they're not really smarter, they just seem smarter" comments. I read all the posts on this thread, and thought it was going to be a civilized discussion, not a "who can look best" contest. Sheesh. Smarter peaple should be exposed to more oprotunities than others, because they can excel more. I'm sure others could accomplish the same things, it would just take a lot longer. I could become a ballet dancer...it would just take me many many years, where as a flexible, energetic, musically oriented person would take a few weeks. And I would say more, but the long post were annoying, so I'll stop here and brace myself for the many flamings sure to come my way. :) *holds fire extinguisher nervously*

I still say school vouchers create more oppurtunities than just opening "gifted" schools.