Illegal Immigrants Marching for Citizenship
 

I think there may be a story at CNN or something, but I just flipped on CNN Headline News and I saw the story. Basically, a million or more illegal immigrants are marching (Dunno where I didn't catch that, but they were on an overpass) and demanding legal citizenship. Is there not some way we can just send all these protesters back to their countries? If they're all gathered up, they've just about done all the work for us.

In any case, I don't see what they hope to achieve. Marches and whatnot will never sway Congress and especially not American citizens to want to give these illegal immigrants citizenship. Quite the opposite, it makes me enraged and intolerant of any illegal immigrants. They should have to earn their citizenship like everyone else who legally becomes a citizen, not just come here illegally and say "I want rights, I deserve them, this is the land of the free! Let me be a citizen for doing nothing!"

Maybe I'm behind in the times, but hell no, get out of our country or become a legal citizen the way everyone else has to if you want to complain about our country. Or maybe, they could just go back to their little backwater country, and shut up. We must do something to stop these ignorant protesters, either as a country or ourselves.

Yeah...whatelse is new...they did the same thing last year? or was it a few years ago. I don't really know what all the bitching is...they (primarily Mexican's) pretty much have both sides of the political isle in the bag and for the most part have full access to social services even though the law says otherwise...it all comes down to the voting booth and to which side our "guests" will elect into power. Yeah, they are not suppose to beable to vote either but they do. No wonder immigrants from other parts of the world who get no special considerations from our government have such animosity for these people - hell, even American citizens get a back seat on ocassion to "accommodate" our friends from the south.

An example: I had the city come by and inform me that I needed to cut the weeds down in front of my house...I told them I would get to it, but while we were on the subject how about the house three doors down who's weeds are reaching up to their porch...the lady calmly said, "well, they don't speek English very well, but I'll inform them." What-the-hell-ever. Already in a shitty mood because of the heat I flatly told her, "It's because I'm White, isn't it?"

I haven't seen the lady in two weeks...an I have yet to take care of the weeds...maybe tomorrow.

If you are referring to a Mexican population, many portions of what was their land about 150 years ago was lost in what Ulysses S. Grant proclaimed the most unjust war waged by a stronger nation on a weaker nation. It was U.S. citizens that traveled into these same lands inhabited and claimed by Mexico, and established permanent residence and centers. These Americans had the same 'complaints' about independence, freedom, and citizenship that these illegal immigrants have now.

The land was eventually taken by force, established as its own republic, and then attained statehood within the U.S. shortly after. It's funny how history repeats itself, and it's rather hypocritical. Atleast these people marching are making their intentions clear(which is to simply have citizenship in the U.S.) in a peaceful manner as opposed to waging war over land.

As for the legality of the issue, we conquered the land and we've owned it for some time now. I agree that in order for the U.S. to maintain an acceptable amount of integrity within the population, and the citizenship process, things need to be done carefully, with everything taken into account. This has a lot of potential economic side-effects as well.

Well, we’ve all read the history books…man has been bending over man for centuries. The Mexican populations are not going to just uproot themselves and leave…they never actually left. Many families living in this country date back to the seizure and purchases of land from Mexico by the US, so Hispanic/Central American peoples were already here. The problem facing us since about the mid 80’s is the influx or imbalance of peoples flooding into this country from Mexico (primarily) and it is causing an economic and social backlash that is taxing the generosity of Americans and causing dislike amongst other immigrants who feel Spanish Speaking peoples are get preferential treatment by Uncle Sam.

Many of these folks are hardworking people who just what to make a living and escape the strife from the corrupt democracy in Mexico – unfortunately because of our current policies (offering amnesty is not the answer either…we did that in 1986 and it made things worse) as it relates to immigration; it also opens up the floodgates for elements of society neither country is prepared (obviously) to deal with. Closing the door a bit and keeping tabs on who is coming and who is going will put everyone’s mind at ease and allow people…to adjust.

I just saw this on the news a few hours ago, they say it was around Los Angeles or somewhere I believe.

And yes, he's correct, it was a million.

These immigrants have been doing this for the last 5 years or so, and they've been doing this to get the government's attention to receive their rights and citizenships. I dont understand this when they can "legally" come into the States without hassle. Even with no money, you can still survive in the States. My vote here is on neither side.

The protests have only happened for two years. I know i might be accused of playing the race card but i don't care. A lot of the anti-immigrant sentiment isn't that much based on anti-immigration feelings but rather the changes in demographics. Many people are angry because a bunch of immigrants are now openly in their neighborhood. For example, some guy might get pissed because the businesses change and cater to immigrants or they here spanish on the radio.

I recommend reading that article
Orange County Weekly - The Anti-Immigrant All-Stars

Less than 1% of the population of Mexico even lived in the territory given to the U.S.A. after the Mexican American War by means of a treaty. Mexicans who wished to stay were given American citizenship. Further, Texas declared independence from Mexico as a result of what they viewed as unfair treatment from the Mexican Government in which they were a part of. Texas was added to the Union with engagements with Mexico still taking place. This is a direct result of the breach of treaty that Santa Ana signed recognizing Texa's Independence in 1836. Further when Texas was entered into the Union the U.S.A. did so on the basis of the establishe boundary that Texas had already established when Santa Ana originally signed the first treaty. The Mexican Government refused to accept the given boundary and violated it, with the end result being the Mexican American War. It's not a matter of history repeating itself. Not even close.

Where they marching too is what I wanna know..!

I liked the section
Hilarious.

What should be of the most concern is that the illegal immigrants may be granted amnesty/citizenship in order to secure those 12 million odd votes, and thus practically win the next few elections. They are an immensely attractive political toy for that reason.

To my previous post, I was going to edit but ran out of time.

EDIT(5/1)- Either way, if they leave or not, they will just come back illegally. If America doesnt act up and give these immigrants what they want, they will just repeat their marching process until they get the governments attention. This will never stop. One voice may get attention, but a hundred people to show up might make a piece of history to remember. If America does allow them to have their citizenship, what would the outcome of this be? As said before, the US begins to over-populate. The US will over-populate, this might hurt the economy, and this will definetely increase poverty. This will also influence others to come into the States and expect the US government to give them citizenships. America is a people-magnet. People come here for freedom and for better living, like I did.

This is going to get worse if no action is taken.

Yes, and that action should be kicking them the fuck out.

:lol: I could see that happening now. But seriously, the immigrants will find a way, not just "a way", a way that might involve stupidty in its path just to get into America. This will just keep revolving until America will bring out the guns. But this would spark a conflict...So America can only lie on the defensive position. So all you can do is to talk them out of this since violence can only result into another Alamo.

America should start increasing patrols around the ocean beaches along the Mexican and American borders. Not just here but all around America. America should also think about what to do with the clever ways these immigrants are using. For instance, many immigrants use man-made tunnels to cross under the border and into the US and not get caught until later days. In my opinion, why not just create moats along the border.

I am amused that people who enter our country illegally are DEMANDING that we give them citizenship.

Not the people who enter the country legally and follow the rules, but the illegals.

They are demanding citizenship for the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants estimated to be in the USA now.

IIRC the march this year was just under 35,000 and was sadi to be less than half who marched last year.

If they are so politically motivated then march and bring about political change and reform in their own country.

They are plenty politically motivated, when they have something to lose if it goes the other way. Think of students protesting the Vietnam war, a whole lot people protested after the draft ended.

Worst article I read in a long time.
The interviewer is trying to be funny on the interviewed expense in the first part of the article.

If someone is against the gigantic immigration-wave that comes from Mexico everyday and openly shows that, he has the right to do so with out being mocked by some liberal newspaper.

That's what I could read from that article anyway.

This would be a great place to round'em up and ship them home.

They come here ILLEGALLY and DEMAND rights, citizenship, and everything else that LEGAL citizens have.

Two major problems; one, what to do with the US-born children of illegal immigrants. Either your going to force US citizens out of the country for the crime of having immigrant parents, or you'll separate minors from their parents.

The other problem is in the home countries, the massive influx will cause huge problems, which will only increase the desire to emigrate back to the US.

Yip true. We have sort of the same problem here in NZ don’t we Mask. Not as such a scale as the US and on that I guess most countries would.
I remember seeing a couple here a few months back, from Germany, he was illegally working and set home but his wife who was an NZ permanent resident was allowed to stay and they had a wee baby born here, he had nowhere to live, no where to go in Germany, so sad!!. As well as he wasn’t even a ‘bad’ person! No criminal record, hard working, yet they ship him out and let people from China, the Islands etc who have no care in the world to work, stay! Go figure.

Let them march. They work twice as hard as most of us do, they have a right to request citizenship. If you haven't read up on the requirements to be a citizen of the U.S., you might want to do that. It's not exactly a walk through the park.

I don't understand why people hate them so much anyway.

I am just annoyed by the combination of disregarding the law and then demanding the same rights that someone who worked within the laws gets. I consider any form of legal rights beyond those that all humans should have
proof that you can cheat the system and come out ahead.

I can understand that demanding rights others worked for seems wrong. But I can also understand that these people just want to make a better life for themselves and there families and not live in a shit hole. If you could save your family by giving them more oppertunities to live a much better life, wouldn't you atleast try?

Under no circumstances should we let these illegals gain citizenship. They have already broken our laws by crossing the border. You do not reward criminals for disobeying our law while other foreigners wait legally to gain citizenship.

We have already been paying tens of billions of dollars in our taxes to cover the expenses illegals use that their labor does not cover. The amount illegals take is nothing compared to the amount that illegals give back by work or sales tax. California itself loses 12 billion dollars annually due to the medical , emergency service, and city expenses every year. This $12 billion comes after the amount of money illegals give back has already been figured in. In addition, by legalizing illegals, the amount of money needed for social security and benefits will go way up since an addition 12-20 million people will be added to the benefits roster; all of the services they will use will be coming from my money, your money, and everyone else's.

They need to get kicked out.

P.S.

Do not waste your vote on a Partisan Democrat ticket. Don't vote for Obama simply because you are a self-proclaimed Democrat either. It's far too early to decide who to vote for since everyone on both sides appear to be spineless empty vagabonds. I see this the same in Obama but people disregard this because they view him as a "fresh" start when in reality he is more of the same.

illegal immigrants
 

Well lets start here, " they are all good hardworking folks ?" Then why is one out of 3 inmates in our prision population a illegal immigrant? Then lets look at the spanish gang problems such as MS-13. We took their land ? Was it not the spanish who came over and killed the mexican aztec race? And what we did take, too bad! We took land off the american indians also, thats life! deal with it! I dont care about their cause! This is america we are a soverin nation and we HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTROL OUR BORDERS! We can not handle a population surge like that it will destroy the country! This has to be controled. We need to be able to screen out the good hardworking ones from the thugs and ect. But how dare they come here and demand anything!!!!! I feel most of them just love our welfare programs and free education programs! As far as the argument they do work no one else wants to do i say we have all kinds of inmates in our prision system that can do the work for free! Mabey MEXICO can trade us free oil for takeing care of all their people? Because i am sick of being taxed to death to support them! This is America we make the rules! Not the throw backs from some 3rd world dirt country !

first of all there's really no need for all that extra junk in all that it's just your emotions overflooding.

yes illegal immigration is a problem, yes our borders should be protected better, and yes we should kick them out if they don't have a green card.

no the illegals shouldn't be given rights, no our government isn't doing anything about it, and no there's not really to much that the legal citizens can do about it...what are we going to do say "leave or i'll put a bullet right between your eyes"? i highly doubt that that would make them leave, if i remember exactly right it takes 14 years to become a citizen and not need a green card.

I have a feeling that they didn't break the law with criminal intent, but more so to be able to feed their families.

Social Security is already a major issue, what with the population pyramid flipping itself over due to the Baby Boomers heading up to the top where they will all be supported by us. I have my doubts about the longevity of Social Security, or that we'll have anything left by the time that we need it anyway.

The thing about illegal immigrants and working is that they take the jobs that most middle-class, possibly even lower-class citizens don't want to take. That alone improves everyone's quality of life, when they're willing to do service jobs that most of us aren't.

And if you've ever actually met some of these people, you'd know that it's impossible to paint an evil picture of them. All they want to do is to work and support their family.

What does this have to do with anything?

Regardless of their intentions, illegals increase crime and lower the standard of living for our own American citizens. They cross over because their country [Mexico] is corrupt and they choose to do nothing about it; instead they come to the U.S.A. and demand full rights when they leech off of the system by breaking our own laws.

This is exactly correct, which is why we simply cannot afford to add 20 million people to an already broke system.

You make too many general assumptions here in regards to the jobs they do. Illegals are not just limited to the "poor workers on the farm" stereotype you seem to have. Many illegals have stolen Social Security Numbers and fake I.D. cards who attain jobs what you would call "normal" Americans could work, like being a mechanic or working at a fast food joint. And as I have already told you, quality of life goes down with illegal immigration, not up. We lose billions of dollars each year because they leech on the system and do not give back through the sales tax and money they put back into the economy.

Hospitals have to constantly foot the bill when an illegal citizen needs medical attention because hospitals cannot refuse medical service to anyone. Who gets to pay for that? You and I. Prisons and jails are overcrowded with illegal alien criminals. The cost on average is $36,000/year for an inmate after taking into account the food, spacing, and payment for the guards to watch these scumbags. 95% of those in L.A. County lockup are deportable, so you can do the math on that one.

This is another stereotype of yours with a "bleeding heart" attitude. If you really cared for these people you would realize that by having them here causes many hardships for our own American citizens who do not cheat the system. The only way to fix the problem with illegal immigration is by fixing Mexico, not legalizing them here in the United States which would as a result throw a huge tax burden on citizens who already cannot afford what little benefits they have in the first place; benefits they actually pay for, unlike illegals.

On this thread? Not really. About you? Everything.

That's absolutely wrong. You realize that Mexicans born in Mexico have an average incarceration percent of 0.07, where as for U.S. born Mexicans, it's almost 6%? Not to mention that from 1994 to present day, violent crime has dropped by over 30%, where as the number of immigrants has increased by 12 million.

If it's already in ruins, you can't use it as arsenal against immigrants. Native-born Americans broke it, it has nothing to do with them.

You do an excellent job of accusing me of doing exactly what you are doing. It's not a stereotype, it's a fact that immigrants do take jobs that no one else wants. But if you want to go the route of "taking American jobs," we'll go that way. The unemployment rate is 5%. It's been that way for years, and it's not like we're going through a Great Depression or anything. They're not going to go for anything that the average American would take, because most Americans have an American education... illegal immigrants don't. They can't take jobs that require an education, so they go back to agriculture or manufacturing -- the jobs they're used to doing, but in better working conditions for better wages.

As I said before, a Mexican born man has an incarceration rate of 0.07%.

A bleeding heart attitude? Stop trying to make this argument a personal one against me, ffs. It doesn't cause any hardships for us, because, as I said before, they don't have an unusually high crime rate and they don't take the jobs that we want. "Fixing" Mexico would cost so much more than providing for these illegal immigrants.

Then don't talk about it in this thread. Once again, making this argument a personal one against me isn't going to help your case any.

I don't care much if they hurt the system. I just don't like them. Mostly because they often act as if they love their home country more then the U.S. If you are actually moving TO the U.S. then you damn well better want to become a part of this country. Speak English, pay taxes, and be American.
Native American, African American, Mexican American, German American, Caucasian American. It's about time we just be Americans and drop the god damn adjectives. I don't hate any race, I just hate anyone who puts their race before their country. You don't have to be super nationalist or anything, in fact that would be bad, but out of all the cultures you might come from your current culture should be the most important to you.

So why should i not be proud of my culture? I mean when it comes to art i can like both Frazetta and Frida can't I? When it comes to music i can like both music in English and in Spanish? I was born in Mexico but here I am a naturalized citizen that files his taxes and i do that and if your offended by me blasting some spanish Ska in my car than i don't care. If your offended by me going to Spanish Ska concert clad in a silver wrestling mask than i don't care. How about the Irish that fly their flag proudly and sing Irish tunes every St. Pattys? Or how about the Puerto Ricans that fly their flag every time they have their parade.

So to put it in simple terms your a xenophobe?

I gotta get ready to work so i will respond later at night.

Reason Magazine - Immigration Now, Immigration Tomorrow, Immigration Forever

Don’t Bad-Mouth Unskilled Immigrants

You don’t have to be a computer whiz to be good for the U.S.A.

Tyler Cowen and Daniel M. Rothschild

Google, Yahoo!, and Sun Microsystems were all founded by immigrants—from Russia, Taiwan, and India, respectively. There is nearly universal agreement that skilled immigrants are an enormous boon to the American economy.

But what about the millions of unskilled laborers who arrive in this country every year? Recent public discourse would have us believe they poach American jobs, lower wages, and sponge off welfare. Yet economic research suggests a different picture: Unskilled immigrants are good for the U.S., and the U.S. is good for them.

Until the late 1990s, when a boom in native-born self-employment occurred, immigrants were more likely than natives to work for themselves. Immigrant small businesses, from the Korean corner market to the Mexican landscaping service, are as American as apple pie. The labor market is not a zero-sum game with a finite number of jobs; immigrants create their own work.

A key question for economists has been whether the influx raises or lowers “native” American wages. U.C.-Berkeley’s David Card, who studied patterns in different U.S. cities, concludes that immigration has not lowered wages for American workers. George Borjas of Harvard counters that immigration reduced the wages of high school dropouts by 7.4 percent between 1980 and 2000.

Most economists have sided with Card. For one thing, his studies better capture the notion that immigrant labor makes work easier for all of us and brings new skills to the table. Additionally, as Card points out, the percentage of native-born high school dropouts has fallen sharply during the last few decades, creating a shortage of unskilled laborers that immigrants fill. In 1980 one out of three American adults had less than a high school education; by 2000 this figure had fallen to less than one in five.

Gianmarco Ottaviano of the University of Bologna and Giovanni Peri of the National Bureau of Economic Research have shown that immigrants and low-skilled American workers fill very different roles in the economy. For instance, 54 percent of tailors in the U.S. are foreign-born, compared with less than 1 percent of crane operators. A similar discrepancy exists between plaster-stucco masons (44 percent immigrant) and sewer-pipe cleaners (less than 1 percent foreign-born). Immigrants come to the United States with different skills, inclinations, and ideas; they are not looking to simply copy the behavior of American workers.

New arrivals, by producing more goods and services, also keep prices down across the economy. Even Borjas, the favorite economist of immigration restrictionists, admits the net gain to the U.S. from immigration is about $7 billion annually.

During the coming decades, the need for immigrant labor will increase, according to demographers. The baby boom generation will need more health care and more nursing homes. The upcoming Medicare fiscal crunch will require more and younger laborers to finance the program.

Some argue that we should employ a more restrictive policy that allows in only immigrants with “needed” skills. But this assumes the government can read the economic tea leaves. Most bureaucrats in 1980 did not foresee the building or biomedical booms of the 1990s, or the decline of auto manufacturing. We should not trust government to know what kind of laborers we will need 20 years from now. The ready presence of immigrant workers, including the unskilled, makes all businesses easier to start and thus spurs American creativity.

We should not forget that immigration is good for the immigrants themselves. It often means the difference between extreme poverty and the good life.

Card finds that post-1965 immigrants, according to U.S. census data, have a good record of assimilation. Second-generation children have, on average, higher education and wages than the children of natives. Of the 39 largest country-of-origin groups, the sons of 33 and the daughters of 32 of those groups have surpassed the educational levels of natives’ children.

Finally, it is fitting that both Card and Borjas are themselves immigrants. Borjas emigrated from Cuba when he was 12, and Card came from Canada to earn his doctorate at Princeton. Their very debate shows how immigrants have become central to the American enterprise.

Yes, immigration brings some real costs. But most of these problems are concentrated in a few border and urban areas; federal policy can help correct the imbalances.

Americans have heard from politicians for more than 200 years that immigration will cause the sky to fall. Yet each time it has only made us stronger.

Wow, you so completely missed my point. I don't care if you hold onto your culture, that is part of what makes the U.S. great. But you must adopt the U.S. "culture", such as speaking English for one thing, which you obviously do quite well. Maintain your own language but it will be a cold day in hell when I actually have to learn a second language to function in this country. If I went to
Spain I would not expect them to speak English, If I went to Germany I would not expect them to speak English. And I find it down right disrespectful to actually translate the U.S. National Anthem into another language.

I understand that immigration is quite a problem for in the US, but I find it strange that an American has such a nationalistic point of view, after all Americans are a wild mixture of all sorts of European cultures and things turned out well enough anyway :)

It's also funny that you mention Spain as example, there are several languages spoken in Spain, three if I remember correctly. Even in Germany you'll need some time to get used to dialects if you decide to live in, for example, Bavaria. And consider Swiss, they not only have three official languages but their own variation of each.

America first though. Your own personal ethnic background should always come behind the country that you have chosen to live in. If I were to move to Germany for example I would certainly retain my American culture but if there was ever a conflict between that culture and the Germany I would choose Germany. All I'm saying is we should not be separating ourselves into these ethnicities as it inevitably leads to conflict. You should not be an African American, you should be an American, you should not be a Mexican-American, you should be an American, you should not be an Irish-American, you should be an American.
That's a little bit different.If you know a language it should take mere days or weeks to pick up on the different dialects of it, but learning a whole new and different language can take considerably longer, and quite frankly I have better things to do then learn Spanish.(Like learning German)

True, but they've spoken those languages for quite a while, where as Spanish is more and more sort of sneaking in. The case in the U.S. would be more like European nations adopting Arabic as one of their languages because that is one of the fastest growing ethnic groups in Europe.

You're right, well said. Personally I'd even go as far as to say that people should be human first and of any nationality second, but we're still too far away from that state I guess.
In case of Germany you are right, Spain has completly different languages though.
At the moment it seems like sneaking in, but in 200 years it will seem just the same as it is now in Spain or the Swiss and the US may even profit from it. Children who learn several languages properly at school will have quite an advantage later on.

I agree that immigrants should learn the language of the country they move into, it's in their own interest, but once the population consists to a large part of people from another culture it will be difficult to force them not to speak their favourite language. Besides, it's not exactly democratical to force either.

You cannot argue with statistics, Ryette. 95% of the murder warrants for L.A. county are for illegal immigrants (not lockup as I stated earlier). I'll let the facts speak for themselves from here on out:

- The number of illegal aliens sentenced in federal courts increased by 167 percent (from the 90s), compared with 13 percent for citizens. The number of legal aliens declined by 18 percent over this period.

- The share of defendants in federal courts who were illegal aliens rose from 4 percent to 11 percent while the share who were legal aliens declined from 12 percent to 9 percent.

- The number of illegal aliens sentenced increased for 89 of the 94 federal district courts, for all major offense categories, and for all major country of citizenship groups

- Law enforcement officials estimate that 20% of gang members in San Diego County are illegal, according to the Union-Tribune.

- The L.A. County Sheriff reported in 2000 that 23% of inmates in county jails were deportable, according to the New York Times.

- The Los Angeles Police Department arrests about 2500 criminally-convicted deportees annually, reports the Los Angeles Times.

An obvious non-sequitur. You cannot add more people to a system that is already broke in the first place, which would further hasten it's collapse. Such a collapse through amnesty has everything to do with them.

Show me one American who would not be willing to work for a fair wage when their livelihood depended on it. Illegals get paid under the table for the work they do and are being exploited, there is no question about that. The businesses who employ them profit while the workers suffer, yes. However this completely ignores the other unemployed Americans who cannot find work because they cannot compete with someone who does not have to get paid at minimum wage. They also cannot compete with the same worker who pays zero taxes through their unreported salary when they have to pay bills for their social security and health benefits. The problem is not the hard working illegal on an individual basis, it's the sheer number of them.

The majority of Americans don't have a college degree so I do not understand what point you are trying to make.

This is a misnomer. Again most Americans don't have a college degree. Further, the children of illegal immigrants are considered American citizens under the current law; as a result, taxpayers get to pay for their education all the way through college if they choose to go that route. Do I even need to mention the birthrate here?

You can re-read my statistics too.

This has nothing to do with you personally whatsoever despite what you think. It is obvious you think illegal immigration is a victimless crime. I suppose you could regard that as being 'personal'. I have already proven you wrong about their supposedly 'lower' crime rate.

I will outline the cost of currently providing for illegal immigrants, numbers which will only grow worse:

Illegal Immigration Costs California $10.5 Billion Annually

Illegal Immigrants' Cost to Government Studied (washingtonpost.com)

It's not an argument against you personally. Voting on a partisan ticket is not a good plan though. That goes for anybody. This country needs less of the same, not more.

Of course you can't. So why ignore the fact that the crime rate is dropping, while illegal immigrants are increasing? If there were a relationship between crime and immigrants, we'd see the crime rate rising, in direct proportion to the immigrant population, don't you agree?

You need to take into account the massive influx of illegal aliens, vs the increase in citizens that are capable of committing a crime.

Since when? And once again, check the amount of legal immigrants vs. those of legal.

Same as above.

I fail to see how this helps your case. That means that 80% of the gang members in San Diego County or legal aliens or citizens. Of course there's going to be immigrants in gangs -- crime is a product of socio-economic standing, and an illegal alien is at the bottom of that standing.

See above.

I'm sure that's taking into account minor crimes, etc., not just violent crimes. I'm sure that if you looked at the arrest rate of LA annually, not just for aliens, but for everyone, the statistics would be somewhere near proportional.

Cannot? I'm sure that we don't have a choice. The system is already failing, how fast if falls is irrelevant. Even more irrelevant is who gives the final blow.



Once again, unemployment rate is 5%, which is the national average for years. They are NOT taking jobs from Americans, as I've said before and cited my own statistics to prove that. Workers (illegal aliens) don't suffer; their wages are higher here than in Mexico, and their working conditions are improved as well. And this is doing the same work they did in Mexico. And it's not like they can force him to pay taxes if he doesn't have citizenship...which is what they want, but what you refuse to give.



High school diploma, sir.



Once again, high school education. Paying for American citizens who have illegal alien parents is a result of our system, not the aliens fault.



An assumption of my attitude and personality is a personal argument, despite what you think. You'd think it'd be rather apparent that a) you can't assume my character from words I say in a debate, unless the words I say are about my character, and b) my character has no place in this argument anyway.

I'm sure it was a message to all of the people in FF from the beginning, right? Next time, just leave it out if it has nothing to do with the debate.

As I see it, Ryette, you live in Kansas if your location is correct. Wisebobo lives in the affected area - California if that location is correct. Why would you want to debate this with someone who sees it firsthand?

And you live in...Denmark, so by your standards, your opinion is even further removed from this argument.

But, really... my location has nothing to do with it. We have our share of illegal immigrants; enough to the point that I know some personally. With the tuition benefits that Kansas gives to illegal aliens (and that our governor, Kathleen Sebelius was sued over), we are only looking towards a greater number of them.

Just because we don't whine about murder statistics, doesn't mean we don't have them. As I stated before, crime is in direct correlation with socio-economic status, and Kansas and the mid-west has a very high standard of living, and is predicted to be the safest area in North America within the next decade or so.

Exactly, that is the point my little friend, I never did state my opinions on the matter.
The only thing I did was commenting on a news article earlier in the thread and made a comment on that locations means more then you might think.
But concerning illegal immigration in USA - not my country = I don't care.
All I was saying is that you live thousands of miles of the epicentre - and "you can't understand why people hate them":rolleyes:
Your location answered the question you made earlier.
Sure you probably have illegal immigrants in Kansas aswell, but soooomething tells me that you don't have even a percent of what they have in California.
But hey, I'm just from Denmark, what do I know:lol:

ok so the DOCUMENTED unemployment rate is 5% thats not including the people like me who aren't drawing unemployment checks so the actual percent is more around 20%, and yeah they are when you go to mcdonalds for a job and they turn you away because there's an illeagal immigrant willing to work for $3.50/hr right beside me, you know something is wrong.

or when i went to be a tobacco worker i asked for $6/hr the illeagals asked for $2/hr, can't compete with that.

some of you scare me................
 

some of you i see understand the danger of this whole thing ! some of you are too young to understand and are just repeating what you hear the empty suit or skirt on CNN talk about. yeah go ahead let all of the great 3rd world trash in. thank god i will be long gone and dead when you are still here to reap the results of this.....................

I haven't followed the discussion as I was in vacation for a week at Portugal so forgive me if some of my points have already been countered.

As far as I understand, illegal immigration is a serious problem in the United States as illegal immigrants use public services while not paying taxes, increase crime and indeed take jobs from Americans as they work under the minimum wage without benefits and they can be fired more easily. They aren't called illegal immigrants for no reason, the laws and customs of the USA must be respected and if people want to come into the USA, there are ways to make it legally.

The issue can be solved if there's just enough political will, needed money can always be found from somewhere else, it all depends about an order of preference. Long, open border needs more surveillance equipment & personnel and enterprises that have illegal workers must be seriously punished with big fines, same applying to illegal workers themselves in some extent as well. Sure this will hurt the economy for some bit but that's the price you have to pay to solve the problem: first and foremost the illegals come into America to work in order to get food into table, not because they regard American culture superior to their own.

Besides, giving a stick is not the only way to encourage enterprises not to hire illegals but giving a carrot as well like giving tax cuts for enterprises with clean record in the matters of employment, for example. Creating an informer system where people/enterprises/organizations would get some sort of reward from reporting illegal employment activities for authorities could also help to solve the problem. Sure, granting more green cards for potential immigrants and lowering requirements could also be needed.


All this sounds harsh but I don't approve the solution that some people are proposing, that is granting the illegals citizenship right away. This would not be fair for those legal immigrants who have worked their butt off to get into the USA legally and it would mean flushing whole immigration policy & respect for law into a toilet. Furthermore, this would just rapidly increase unregulated immigration from Latin America to the USA and increase the amount of 2nd class citizenry: poor, foreign-origin worker class while burdening already fragile public services.

Wrong. Native-born Americans do cause harm, but at least you can track them home, and at least you can play the "help-your-fellow-countryman" card. However, this isn't what I should be focusing on. Ryette, it could be different, as you do not live in California, but here, workplace injuries of undocumented workers, accidents by illegal immigrants, etc, are a frickin' huge force on our wobbly medical system. I am unsure how many of you know the true cost of providing all these services, it isn't a case of mean doctors overcharging people, they need the money to keep the ICU and ER running.
This number is the incarceration rate for Mexico. Are there any reasons why this may not fit into total level of crime, perhaps? Say, corruption in the police force, corruption in the legal system, lack of law enforcement? Or even just not wanting to spend the money to lock up every criminal? Oh, and this factors in the rich, whiter Mexicans, right? the ones who aren't quite as desperate to improve their lot in life? The ones that are getting the hell out of Mexico are the ones who don't have prospects there, if not the bottom of the caste system, pretty damn close to it. They tend to be broke, and desperately in need of money to pay of food and clothing and shelter. Add this abject poverty to being surrounded by rich people with all their needs met (and more), you can see why this might generate anger, which makes crimes easier to commit.

yeah IF there is enough political will the whole politics thing is getting rather old, basically all the politicians have their heads stuck in iraq and not in the country affairs so there's not much the legals (green card or not) can really do but threaten them with a gun to go back to their own country which wouldn't work because then they'd get thrown in jail for a death threat or some kind of discriminatory remark.

You are using distorted statistics from columnist Linda Chavez.

Non-citizens account for 7.2% of the total population according to the 2003 Census.

The incarcerated population for that year was 12.9%. 27% of all prisoners in Federal custody are illegal aliens. Of this figure, 63% are citizens of Mexico. That data can be found here.

I already have. The conclusion is that illegal aliens cannot commit crime if they are not in the country in the first place.

You failing to do research does not necessitate the explanation of my own. There are government sources out there on the web (usually quoted in news article) such as what I have already provided for you.

You still don't get it. 20% out of a single gang of 20,000 is composed of illegal immigrants. That is a huge staggering number. You don't need to tell me how gangs are formed and how they exist, I already know that. Regardless, 4,000 gang members exist because they have been allowed into the country by people who believe crossing the border to be a victimless crime.

Using your own logic, illegal aliens are more prone to join gangs because they are at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder. If that is the case, why do you believe they should be allowed in? Their legal status will not change the fact that they do all the shit-jobs "no one wants to do" as you claim and be dissatisfied with their class, which as you yourself have said is a reason for joining a gang.

It's not a matter of proportion it's a matter of occurance. Such crimes would not be committed if they were not here in the first place. Why you do not understand this I do not know; the only conclusion is that you do not care what crimes they commit. So far you have only excused them.

Social Security failing 30 years in advance (based on currently accepted data. Google Bush's attempts to privatize it) thanks to Illegal Immigrants and you feel that an early collapse is irrelevant? Come on Ryette, get a clue.

You are using faulty reasoning here. The unemployment rate is the reflection of those receiving benefits for it, not the current status of employment. They ARE taking jobs from Americans and you have no statistics to show otherwise.

You believe the working conditions of illegals are improved here? Not by much if you care to see videos on their living conditions. They live in shanty towns and cesspools. What you fail to understand Ryette is that even by legalizing all illegal immigrants, their taxes will not cover the benefits they will receive as a result of their legalization. If the benefits they used were covered by what they give back that would not be a problem; however there are far too many for the system to be capable of sustaining them. You cite the system as to being to blame, not the illegals, but the illegals themselves are necessitating the collapse the system. :rolleyes:

You do not need a degree to work a field or in a fast food joint. Further you have already stated that their working conditions have improved than where they worked in Mexico. Thirdly, we are already paying for the education of illegal immigrants' children so they can get degrees. I.E., YOUR CLASSMATES.

If they were not here in the first place we would not be paying for them. :uhoh:

Your conduct in this argument has a place in this discussion. Repeatedly you have provided excuses for illegal aliens and illegal aliens who commit violent crimes. I'd say that's quite inducive to your character. It's not an ad hominem, it's a statement of fact. I'm sure that others here would agree with my assesment.

Your apologetic views, or someone elses, have nothing to do with the debate? O.K. Ryette. :mihailhatesu:

I don't have any problem with legal immigration. It's the fact that people that have broken the law seem to think they have an argument. They don't.

If the immigration laws can be violated and no one is going to enforce the law, then I guess we can start deciding which other laws we don't want to obey.

Don't generalize all politicians due to the political elite (Clinton, Reid, Pelosi, McCain, Giuliani etc). I agree that the war in Iraq has got too much attention in the American politics though it's very significant issue as the campaign eats huge amounts of money from the budget, US armed forces is pinned down in Iraq and the country is considered to be the centre in fighting against global terrorism, not to mention dying US soldiers in Iraq.

Furthermore, it's not just the political elite to blame but also the US media and the US people: if people wouldn't be so interested about the campaign in Iraq, the medias and politicians wouldn't talk about it so much.

Sorry for getting a bit off topic here, just wanted to clear this thing out.

yeah, ok there are terrorist big deal there's always going to be terrorists nothing's ever going to change that. i don't think blowing a few buildings sky high will stop them.

yeah the USA doesn't have very much of a budget left which is going to hurt alot of the programs in place alot worse than they are already hurting and the illegal immigration isn't helping any at all, they need to put the money into something more usefull for the economy of the states illegal imigration isn't the only thing but it is one of the bigger things.

There are other factors involved, not just immigration, like concealed weapon permits and increased police enforcement.