Illegal Immigrants Marching for Citizenship

[MOLECH]

some of you i see understand the danger of this whole thing ! some of you are too young to understand and are just repeating what you hear the empty suit or skirt on CNN talk about. yeah go ahead let all of the great 3rd world trash in. thank god i will be long gone and dead when you are still here to reap the results of this.....................

[Relander]

I haven't followed the discussion as I was in vacation for a week at Portugal so forgive me if some of my points have already been countered.

As far as I understand, illegal immigration is a serious problem in the United States as illegal immigrants use public services while not paying taxes, increase crime and indeed take jobs from Americans as they work under the minimum wage without benefits and they can be fired more easily. They aren't called illegal immigrants for no reason, the laws and customs of the USA must be respected and if people want to come into the USA, there are ways to make it legally.

The issue can be solved if there's just enough political will, needed money can always be found from somewhere else, it all depends about an order of preference. Long, open border needs more surveillance equipment & personnel and enterprises that have illegal workers must be seriously punished with big fines, same applying to illegal workers themselves in some extent as well. Sure this will hurt the economy for some bit but that's the price you have to pay to solve the problem: first and foremost the illegals come into America to work in order to get food into table, not because they regard American culture superior to their own.

Besides, giving a stick is not the only way to encourage enterprises not to hire illegals but giving a carrot as well like giving tax cuts for enterprises with clean record in the matters of employment, for example. Creating an informer system where people/enterprises/organizations would get some sort of reward from reporting illegal employment activities for authorities could also help to solve the problem. Sure, granting more green cards for potential immigrants and lowering requirements could also be needed.


All this sounds harsh but I don't approve the solution that some people are proposing, that is granting the illegals citizenship right away. This would not be fair for those legal immigrants who have worked their butt off to get into the USA legally and it would mean flushing whole immigration policy & respect for law into a toilet. Furthermore, this would just rapidly increase unregulated immigration from Latin America to the USA and increase the amount of 2nd class citizenry: poor, foreign-origin worker class while burdening already fragile public services.

[Crazy Wolf]

Originally Posted by Ryette, RE: Social Security/Medical system

If it's already in ruins, you can't use it as arsenal against immigrants. Native-born Americans broke it, it has nothing to do with them.

Wrong. Native-born Americans do cause harm, but at least you can track them home, and at least you can play the "help-your-fellow-countryman" card. However, this isn't what I should be focusing on. Ryette, it could be different, as you do not live in California, but here, workplace injuries of undocumented workers, accidents by illegal immigrants, etc, are a frickin' huge force on our wobbly medical system. I am unsure how many of you know the true cost of providing all these services, it isn't a case of mean doctors overcharging people, they need the money to keep the ICU and ER running.

As I said before, a Mexican born man has an incarceration rate of 0.07%.

This number is the incarceration rate for Mexico. Are there any reasons why this may not fit into total level of crime, perhaps? Say, corruption in the police force, corruption in the legal system, lack of law enforcement? Or even just not wanting to spend the money to lock up every criminal? Oh, and this factors in the rich, whiter Mexicans, right? the ones who aren't quite as desperate to improve their lot in life? The ones that are getting the hell out of Mexico are the ones who don't have prospects there, if not the bottom of the caste system, pretty damn close to it. They tend to be broke, and desperately in need of money to pay of food and clothing and shelter. Add this abject poverty to being surrounded by rich people with all their needs met (and more), you can see why this might generate anger, which makes crimes easier to commit.

[feardamaverickhunters]

The issue can be solved if there's just enough political will, needed money can always be found from somewhere else, it all depends about an order of preference. Long, open border needs more surveillance equipment & personnel and enterprises that have illegal workers must be seriously punished with big fines, same applying to illegal workers themselves in some extent as well. Sure this will hurt the economy for some bit but that's the price you have to pay to solve the problem: first and foremost the illegals come into America to work in order to get food into table, not because they regard American culture superior to their own.

yeah IF there is enough political will the whole politics thing is getting rather old, basically all the politicians have their heads stuck in iraq and not in the country affairs so there's not much the legals (green card or not) can really do but threaten them with a gun to go back to their own country which wouldn't work because then they'd get thrown in jail for a death threat or some kind of discriminatory remark.

[WiseBobo]

Originally Posted by Ryette

Of course you can't. So why ignore the fact that the crime rate is dropping, while illegal immigrants are increasing? If there were a relationship between crime and immigrants, we'd see the crime rate rising, in direct proportion to the immigrant population, don't you agree?

You are using distorted statistics from columnist Linda Chavez.

Non-citizens account for 7.2% of the total population according to the 2003 Census.

The incarcerated population for that year was 12.9%. 27% of all prisoners in Federal custody are illegal aliens. Of this figure, 63% are citizens of Mexico. That data can be found here.

You need to take into account the massive influx of illegal aliens, vs the increase in citizens that are capable of committing a crime.

I already have. The conclusion is that illegal aliens cannot commit crime if they are not in the country in the first place.

Since when? And once again, check the amount of legal immigrants vs. those of legal.

You failing to do research does not necessitate the explanation of my own. There are government sources out there on the web (usually quoted in news article) such as what I have already provided for you.

I fail to see how this helps your case. That means that 80% of the gang members in San Diego County or legal aliens or citizens. Of course there's going to be immigrants in gangs -- crime is a product of socio-economic standing, and an illegal alien is at the bottom of that standing.

You still don't get it. 20% out of a single gang of 20,000 is composed of illegal immigrants. That is a huge staggering number. You don't need to tell me how gangs are formed and how they exist, I already know that. Regardless, 4,000 gang members exist because they have been allowed into the country by people who believe crossing the border to be a victimless crime.

Using your own logic, illegal aliens are more prone to join gangs because they are at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder. If that is the case, why do you believe they should be allowed in? Their legal status will not change the fact that they do all the shit-jobs "no one wants to do" as you claim and be dissatisfied with their class, which as you yourself have said is a reason for joining a gang.

I'm sure that's taking into account minor crimes, etc., not just violent crimes. I'm sure that if you looked at the arrest rate of LA annually, not just for aliens, but for everyone, the statistics would be somewhere near proportional.

It's not a matter of proportion it's a matter of occurance. Such crimes would not be committed if they were not here in the first place. Why you do not understand this I do not know; the only conclusion is that you do not care what crimes they commit. So far you have only excused them.

Cannot? I'm sure that we don't have a choice. The system is already failing, how fast if falls is irrelevant. Even more irrelevant is who gives the final blow.

Social Security failing 30 years in advance (based on currently accepted data. Google Bush's attempts to privatize it) thanks to Illegal Immigrants and you feel that an early collapse is irrelevant? Come on Ryette, get a clue.

Once again, unemployment rate is 5%, which is the national average for years. They are NOT taking jobs from Americans, as I've said before and cited my own statistics to prove that. Workers (illegal aliens) don't suffer; their wages are higher here than in Mexico, and their working conditions are improved as well. And this is doing the same work they did in Mexico. And it's not like they can force him to pay taxes if he doesn't have citizenship...which is what they want, but what you refuse to give.

You are using faulty reasoning here. The unemployment rate is the reflection of those receiving benefits for it, not the current status of employment. They ARE taking jobs from Americans and you have no statistics to show otherwise.

You believe the working conditions of illegals are improved here? Not by much if you care to see videos on their living conditions. They live in shanty towns and cesspools. What you fail to understand Ryette is that even by legalizing all illegal immigrants, their taxes will not cover the benefits they will receive as a result of their legalization. If the benefits they used were covered by what they give back that would not be a problem; however there are far too many for the system to be capable of sustaining them. You cite the system as to being to blame, not the illegals, but the illegals themselves are necessitating the collapse the system.

High school diploma, sir.

You do not need a degree to work a field or in a fast food joint. Further you have already stated that their working conditions have improved than where they worked in Mexico. Thirdly, we are already paying for the education of illegal immigrants' children so they can get degrees. I.E., YOUR CLASSMATES.

Once again, high school education. Paying for American citizens who have illegal alien parents is a result of our system, not the aliens fault.

If they were not here in the first place we would not be paying for them.

An assumption of my attitude and personality is a personal argument, despite what you think. You'd think it'd be rather apparent that a) you can't assume my character from words I say in a debate, unless the words I say are about my character, and b) my character has no place in this argument anyway.

Your conduct in this argument has a place in this discussion. Repeatedly you have provided excuses for illegal aliens and illegal aliens who commit violent crimes. I'd say that's quite inducive to your character. It's not an ad hominem, it's a statement of fact. I'm sure that others here would agree with my assesment.

I'm sure it was a message to all of the people in FF from the beginning, right? Next time, just leave it out if it has nothing to do with the debate.

Your apologetic views, or someone elses, have nothing to do with the debate? O.K. Ryette.

[Hawkeye18z]

I don't have any problem with legal immigration. It's the fact that people that have broken the law seem to think they have an argument. They don't.

If the immigration laws can be violated and no one is going to enforce the law, then I guess we can start deciding which other laws we don't want to obey.

[Relander]

Originally Posted by feardamaverickhunters

yeah IF there is enough political will the whole politics thing is getting rather old, basically all the politicians have their heads stuck in iraq and not in the country affairs

Don't generalize all politicians due to the political elite (Clinton, Reid, Pelosi, McCain, Giuliani etc). I agree that the war in Iraq has got too much attention in the American politics though it's very significant issue as the campaign eats huge amounts of money from the budget, US armed forces is pinned down in Iraq and the country is considered to be the centre in fighting against global terrorism, not to mention dying US soldiers in Iraq.

Furthermore, it's not just the political elite to blame but also the US media and the US people: if people wouldn't be so interested about the campaign in Iraq, the medias and politicians wouldn't talk about it so much.

Sorry for getting a bit off topic here, just wanted to clear this thing out.

[feardamaverickhunters]

yeah, ok there are terrorist big deal there's always going to be terrorists nothing's ever going to change that. i don't think blowing a few buildings sky high will stop them.

yeah the USA doesn't have very much of a budget left which is going to hurt alot of the programs in place alot worse than they are already hurting and the illegal immigration isn't helping any at all, they need to put the money into something more usefull for the economy of the states illegal imigration isn't the only thing but it is one of the bigger things.

[Joe Bonham]

Of course you can't. So why ignore the fact that the crime rate is dropping, while illegal immigrants are increasing? If there were a relationship between crime and immigrants, we'd see the crime rate rising, in direct proportion to the immigrant population, don't you agree?

There are other factors involved, not just immigration, like concealed weapon permits and increased police enforcement.