So why should i not be proud of my culture? I mean when it comes to art i can like both Frazetta and Frida can't I? When it comes to music i can like both music in English and in Spanish? I was born in Mexico but here I am a naturalized citizen that files his taxes and i do that and if your offended by me blasting some spanish Ska in my car than i don't care. If your offended by me going to Spanish Ska concert clad in a silver wrestling mask than i don't care. How about the Irish that fly their flag proudly and sing Irish tunes every St. Pattys? Or how about the Puerto Ricans that fly their flag every time they have their parade.
Wow, you so completely missed my point. I don't care if you hold onto your culture, that is part of what makes the U.S. great. But you must adopt the U.S. "culture", such as speaking English for one thing, which you obviously do quite well. Maintain your own language but it will be a cold day in hell when I actually have to learn a second language to function in this country. If I went to
Spain I would not expect them to speak English, If I went to Germany I would not expect them to speak English. And I find it down right disrespectful to actually translate the U.S. National Anthem into another language.
Wow, you so completely missed my point. I don't care if you hold onto your culture, that is part of what makes the U.S. great. But you must adopt the U.S. "culture", such as speaking English for one thing, which you obviously do quite well. Maintain your own language but it will be a cold day in hell when I actually have to learn a second language to function in this country. If I went to
Spain I would not expect them to speak English, If I went to Germany I would not expect them to speak English. And I find it down right disrespectful to actually translate the U.S. National Anthem into another language.
I understand that immigration is quite a problem for in the US, but I find it strange that an American has such a nationalistic point of view, after all Americans are a wild mixture of all sorts of European cultures and things turned out well enough anyway
It's also funny that you mention Spain as example, there are several languages spoken in Spain, three if I remember correctly. Even in Germany you'll need some time to get used to dialects if you decide to live in, for example, Bavaria. And consider Swiss, they not only have three official languages but their own variation of each.
I understand that immigration is quite a problem for in the US, but I find it strange that an American has such a nationalistic point of view, after all Americans are a wild mixture of all sorts of European cultures and things turned out well enough anyway
America first though. Your own personal ethnic background should always come behind the country that you have chosen to live in. If I were to move to Germany for example I would certainly retain my American culture but if there was ever a conflict between that culture and the Germany I would choose Germany. All I'm saying is we should not be separating ourselves into these ethnicities as it inevitably leads to conflict. You should not be an African American, you should be an American, you should not be a Mexican-American, you should be an American, you should not be an Irish-American, you should be an American.
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It's also funny that you mention Spain as example, there are several languages spoken in Spain, three if I remember correctly. Even in Germany you'll need some time to get used to dialects if you decide to live in, for example, Bavaria.
That's a little bit different.If you know a language it should take mere days or weeks to pick up on the different dialects of it, but learning a whole new and different language can take considerably longer, and quite frankly I have better things to do then learn Spanish.(Like learning German)
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And consider Swiss, they not only have three official languages but their own variation of each.
True, but they've spoken those languages for quite a while, where as Spanish is more and more sort of sneaking in. The case in the U.S. would be more like European nations adopting Arabic as one of their languages because that is one of the fastest growing ethnic groups in Europe.
America first though. Your own personal ethnic background should always come behind the country that you have chosen to live in. If I were to move to Germany for example I would certainly retain my American culture but if there was ever a conflict between that culture and the Germany I would choose Germany. All I'm saying is we should not be separating ourselves into these ethnicities as it inevitably leads to conflict. You should not be an African American, you should be an American, you should not be a Mexican-American, you should be an American, you should not be an Irish-American, you should be an American.
You're right, well said. Personally I'd even go as far as to say that people should be human first and of any nationality second, but we're still too far away from that state I guess.
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That's a little bit different.If you know a language it should take mere days or weeks to pick up on the different dialects of it, but learning a whole new and different language can take considerably longer, and quite frankly I have better things to do then learn Spanish.(Like learning German)
In case of Germany you are right, Spain has completly different languages though.
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True, but they've spoken those languages for quite a while, where as Spanish is more and more sort of sneaking in. The case in the U.S. would be more like European nations adopting Arabic as one of their languages because that is one of the fastest growing ethnic groups in Europe.
At the moment it seems like sneaking in, but in 200 years it will seem just the same as it is now in Spain or the Swiss and the US may even profit from it. Children who learn several languages properly at school will have quite an advantage later on.
I agree that immigrants should learn the language of the country they move into, it's in their own interest, but once the population consists to a large part of people from another culture it will be difficult to force them not to speak their favourite language. Besides, it's not exactly democratical to force either.
That's absolutely wrong. You realize that Mexicans born in Mexico have an average incarceration percent of 0.07, where as for U.S. born Mexicans, it's almost 6%? Not to mention that from 1994 to present day, violent crime has dropped by over 30%, where as the number of immigrants has increased by 12 million.
You cannot argue with statistics, Ryette. 95% of the murder warrants for L.A. county are for illegal immigrants (not lockup as I stated earlier). I'll let the facts speak for themselves from here on out:
- The number of illegal aliens sentenced in federal courts increased by 167 percent (from the 90s), compared with 13 percent for citizens. The number of legal aliens declined by 18 percent over this period.
- The share of defendants in federal courts who were illegal aliens rose from 4 percent to 11 percent while the share who were legal aliens declined from 12 percent to 9 percent.
- The number of illegal aliens sentenced increased for 89 of the 94 federal district courts, for all major offense categories, and for all major country of citizenship groups
- Law enforcement officials estimate that 20% of gang members in San Diego County are illegal, according to the Union-Tribune.
- The L.A. County Sheriff reported in 2000 that 23% of inmates in county jails were deportable, according to the New York Times.
- The Los Angeles Police Department arrests about 2500 criminally-convicted deportees annually, reports the Los Angeles Times.
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If it's already in ruins, you can't use it as arsenal against immigrants. Native-born Americans broke it, it has nothing to do with them.
An obvious non-sequitur. You cannot add more people to a system that is already broke in the first place, which would further hasten it's collapse. Such a collapse through amnesty has everything to do with them.
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It's not a stereotype, it's a fact that immigrants do take jobs that no one else wants.
Show me one American who would not be willing to work for a fair wage when their livelihood depended on it. Illegals get paid under the table for the work they do and are being exploited, there is no question about that. The businesses who employ them profit while the workers suffer, yes. However this completely ignores the other unemployed Americans who cannot find work because they cannot compete with someone who does not have to get paid at minimum wage. They also cannot compete with the same worker who pays zero taxes through their unreported salary when they have to pay bills for their social security and health benefits. The problem is not the hard working illegal on an individual basis, it's the sheer number of them.
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They're not going to go for anything that the average American would take, because most Americans have an American education... illegal immigrants don't.
The majority of Americans don't have a college degree so I do not understand what point you are trying to make.
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They can't take jobs that require an education, so they go back to agriculture or manufacturing -- the jobs they're used to doing, but in better working conditions for better wages.
This is a misnomer. Again most Americans don't have a college degree. Further, the children of illegal immigrants are considered American citizens under the current law; as a result, taxpayers get to pay for their education all the way through college if they choose to go that route. Do I even need to mention the birthrate here?
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As I said before, a Mexican born man has an incarceration rate of 0.07%.
You can re-read my statistics too.
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A bleeding heart attitude? Stop trying to make this argument a personal one against me, ffs. It doesn't cause any hardships for us, because, as I said before, they don't have an unusually high crime rate and they don't take the jobs that we want. "Fixing" Mexico would cost so much more than providing for these illegal immigrants.
This has nothing to do with you personally whatsoever despite what you think. It is obvious you think illegal immigration is a victimless crime. I suppose you could regard that as being 'personal'. I have already proven you wrong about their supposedly 'lower' crime rate.
I will outline the cost of currently providing for illegal immigrants, numbers which will only grow worse:
- A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.
Among the key finding of the report are that the state's already struggling K-12 education system spends approximately $7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers' money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals.
"California's addiction to 'cheap' illegal alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state's shrinking middle class tax base," stated Dan Stein, President of FAIR.
"Most Californians, who have seen their taxes increase while public services deteriorate, already know the impact that mass illegal immigration is having on their communities, but even they may be shocked when they learn just how much of a drain illegal immigration has become."
The Costs of Illegal Immigration to Californians focuses on three specific program areas because those were the costs examined by researchers from the Urban Institute in 1994. Looking at the costs of education, health care and incarceration for illegal aliens in 1994, the Urban Institute estimated that California was subsidizing illegal immigrants to the tune of about $1.1 billion. The enormous rise in the costs of illegal immigrants over the intervening ten years is due to the rapid growth in illegal residents. It is reasonable to expect those costs to continue to soar if action is not taken to turn the tide.
"Nineteen ninety-four was the same year that California voters rebelled and overwhelmingly passed Proposition 187, which sought to limit liability for mass illegal immigration. Since then, state and local governments have blatantly ignored the wishes of the voters and continued to shell out publicly financed benefits on illegal aliens," said Stein. "Predictably, the costs of illegal immigration have grown geometrically, while the state has spiraled into a fiscal crisis that has brought it near bankruptcy.
"Nothing could more starkly illustrate the very high costs of ‘cheap labor' than California's current situation," continued Stein. "A small number of powerful interests in the state reap the benefits, while the average native-born family in California gets handed a nearly $1,200 a year bill."
The Federation for American Immigration Reform is a nonprofit, public-interest, membership organization advocating immigration policy reforms that would tighten border security and prevent illegal immigration, while reducing legal immigration levels from about 1.1 million persons per year to 300,000 per year.
"Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
The costs outlined in the report include government services such as Medicaid, medical treatment for the uninsured, food assistance programs, the federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools.
The study acknowledged that, on average, the costs that illegal-immigrant households bear on the federal government are less than half that of other households, and that many of those costs relate to their U.S.-born children. It also pointed out that tax payments by illegal-immigrant households constitute one-fourth those of other households because of low-income jobs.
"With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services," Camarota said.
The report estimates that granting legal status to illegal immigrants would dramatically increase their cost, causing the net fiscal deficit to rise to nearly $29 billion because, the author argues, unskilled immigrants would have access to more government services while continuing to make modest tax payments.
Camarota concluded in his report that the fiscal impact could be lessened only by stringently enforcing immigration laws, a view that drew criticism from some immigration specialists and advocacy groups that also accused him of not coming up with constructive recommendations.
"Implied within this study's findings is the sense that if these people could suddenly be made to disappear, the federal government would be $10 billion to the plus, and that is almost certainly not true once you look at the numbers," Jeffrey S. Passel, a demographer at the Urban Institute, said in an interview.
"Should you charge up to undocumented aliens the cost of small-business loans that they don't get or the cost of civil litigation, among other things? This report does that," he said.
Frank Sharry, director of the National Immigration Forum, an immigrant advocacy group, took issue with the report's treatment of illegal immigrants' U.S.-born children, who are American citizens.
"The costs of the children of immigrants are accounted for [in the report], but not their contributions to the economy as workers and taxpayers," he said in a written statement, adding that the report's conclusions were not helpful to the debate on immigration reform.
"There is a growing consensus in both political parties that our immigration system needs to be comprehensively reformed," Sharry said. "Our current system of haphazard laws, spotty enforcement, border chaos and unfair restrictions needs to be replaced by a regulatory regime that makes immigration safe, legal and orderly."
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Then don't talk about it in this thread. Once again, making this argument a personal one against me isn't going to help your case any.
It's not an argument against you personally. Voting on a partisan ticket is not a good plan though. That goes for anybody. This country needs less of the same, not more.
You cannot argue with statistics, Ryette. 95% of the murder warrants for L.A. county are for illegal immigrants (not lockup as I stated earlier).
Of course you can't. So why ignore the fact that the crime rate is dropping, while illegal immigrants are increasing? If there were a relationship between crime and immigrants, we'd see the crime rate rising, in direct proportion to the immigrant population, don't you agree?
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I'll let the facts speak for themselves from here on out:
- The number of illegal aliens sentenced in federal courts increased by 167 percent (from the 90s), compared with 13 percent for citizens. The number of legal aliens declined by 18 percent over this period.
You need to take into account the massive influx of illegal aliens, vs the increase in citizens that are capable of committing a crime.
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- The share of defendants in federal courts who were illegal aliens rose from 4 percent to 11 percent while the share who were legal aliens declined from 12 percent to 9 percent.
Since when? And once again, check the amount of legal immigrants vs. those of legal.
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- The number of illegal aliens sentenced increased for 89 of the 94 federal district courts, for all major offense categories, and for all major country of citizenship groups
Same as above.
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- Law enforcement officials estimate that 20% of gang members in San Diego County are illegal, according to the Union-Tribune.
I fail to see how this helps your case. That means that 80% of the gang members in San Diego County or legal aliens or citizens. Of course there's going to be immigrants in gangs -- crime is a product of socio-economic standing, and an illegal alien is at the bottom of that standing.
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- The L.A. County Sheriff reported in 2000 that 23% of inmates in county jails were deportable, according to the New York Times.
See above.
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- The Los Angeles Police Department arrests about 2500 criminally-convicted deportees annually, reports the Los Angeles Times.
I'm sure that's taking into account minor crimes, etc., not just violent crimes. I'm sure that if you looked at the arrest rate of LA annually, not just for aliens, but for everyone, the statistics would be somewhere near proportional.
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An obvious non-sequitur. You cannot add more people to a system that is already broke in the first place, which would further hasten it's collapse. Such a collapse through amnesty has everything to do with them.
Cannot? I'm sure that we don't have a choice. The system is already failing, how fast if falls is irrelevant. Even more irrelevant is who gives the final blow.
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Show me one American who would not be willing to work for a fair wage when their livelihood depended on it. Illegals get paid under the table for the work they do and are being exploited, there is no question about that. The businesses who employ them profit while the workers suffer, yes. However this completely ignores the other unemployed Americans who cannot find work because they cannot compete with someone who does not have to get paid at minimum wage. They also cannot compete with the same worker who pays zero taxes through their unreported salary when they have to pay bills for their social security and health benefits. The problem is not the hard working illegal on an individual basis, it's the sheer number of them.
Once again, unemployment rate is 5%, which is the national average for years. They are NOT taking jobs from Americans, as I've said before and cited my own statistics to prove that. Workers (illegal aliens) don't suffer; their wages are higher here than in Mexico, and their working conditions are improved as well. And this is doing the same work they did in Mexico. And it's not like they can force him to pay taxes if he doesn't have citizenship...which is what they want, but what you refuse to give.
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The majority of Americans don't have a college degree so I do not understand what point you are trying to make.
High school diploma, sir.
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This is a misnomer. Again most Americans don't have a college degree. Further, the children of illegal immigrants are considered American citizens under the current law; as a result, taxpayers get to pay for their education all the way through college if they choose to go that route. Do I even need to mention the birthrate here?
Once again, high school education. Paying for American citizens who have illegal alien parents is a result of our system, not the aliens fault.
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This has nothing to do with you personally whatsoever despite what you think. It is obvious you think illegal immigration is a victimless crime. I suppose you could regard that as being 'personal'. I have already proven you wrong about their supposedly 'lower' crime rate.
An assumption of my attitude and personality is a personal argument, despite what you think. You'd think it'd be rather apparent that a) you can't assume my character from words I say in a debate, unless the words I say are about my character, and b) my character has no place in this argument anyway.
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It's not an argument against you personally. Voting on a partisan ticket is not a good plan though. That goes for anybody. This country needs less of the same, not more.
I'm sure it was a message to all of the people in FF from the beginning, right? Next time, just leave it out if it has nothing to do with the debate.
As I see it, Ryette, you live in Kansas if your location is correct. Wisebobo lives in the affected area - California if that location is correct. Why would you want to debate this with someone who sees it firsthand?
As I see it, Ryette, you live in Kansas if your location is correct. Wisebobo lives in the affected area - California if that location is correct. Why would you want to debate this with someone who sees it firsthand?
And you live in...Denmark, so by your standards, your opinion is even further removed from this argument.
But, really... my location has nothing to do with it. We have our share of illegal immigrants; enough to the point that I know some personally. With the tuition benefits that Kansas gives to illegal aliens (and that our governor, Kathleen Sebelius was sued over), we are only looking towards a greater number of them.
Just because we don't whine about murder statistics, doesn't mean we don't have them. As I stated before, crime is in direct correlation with socio-economic status, and Kansas and the mid-west has a very high standard of living, and is predicted to be the safest area in North America within the next decade or so.
And you live in...Denmark, so by your standards, your opinion is even further removed from this argument.
Exactly, that is the point my little friend, I never did state my opinions on the matter.
The only thing I did was commenting on a news article earlier in the thread and made a comment on that locations means more then you might think.
But concerning illegal immigration in USA - not my country = I don't care.
All I was saying is that you live thousands of miles of the epicentre - and "you can't understand why people hate them"
Your location answered the question you made earlier.
Sure you probably have illegal immigrants in Kansas aswell, but soooomething tells me that you don't have even a percent of what they have in California.
But hey, I'm just from Denmark, what do I know:lol:
Once again, unemployment rate is 5%, which is the national average for years. They are NOT taking jobs from Americans, as I've said before and cited my own statistics to prove that. Workers (illegal aliens) don't suffer; their wages are higher here than in Mexico, and their working conditions are improved as well. And this is doing the same work they did in Mexico. And it's not like they can force him to pay taxes if he doesn't have citizenship...which is what they want, but what you refuse to give.
ok so the DOCUMENTED unemployment rate is 5% thats not including the people like me who aren't drawing unemployment checks so the actual percent is more around 20%, and yeah they are when you go to mcdonalds for a job and they turn you away because there's an illeagal immigrant willing to work for $3.50/hr right beside me, you know something is wrong.
or when i went to be a tobacco worker i asked for $6/hr the illeagals asked for $2/hr, can't compete with that.
if everyone cared and nobody lied, if everyone shared and swallowed their pride we'd see a day that nobody died.
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