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Force Recon September 5th, 2006 05:06 AM

fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hasan Suroor

In recent weeks, a number of people of Asian or Arab origin have been forced off flights in Europe and America. What these cases illustrate goes far beyond legitimate policing and security precautions. This is vigilantism.

ISOLATED INCIDENTS? Or a glimpse into the future? A sign that a new offence of "travelling while Asians," as a senior British Asian police officer put it, has already kicked in? That de facto "racial profiling" of air passengers is already taking place?

In recent weeks, since an alleged plot to blow up American airplanes came to light, there have been a number of incidents in which people of Asian or Arab origin have been forced off flights in Europe and America because they were seen as a potential security threat even though they had been cleared by airport security like other passengers and were later found to be completely innocent. (As I write this a Mumbai-bound U.S. plane returned to Amsterdam on Wednesday shortly after take-off because of alleged "suspicious" activity on board.)

The standard explanation is that the person in question was behaving "suspiciously" and other passengers did not feel comfortable travelling with him or her on board. In none of these cases, is it clear what precisely they were doing that aroused such serious suspicion that they needed to be offloaded despite having been through the most stringent security before boarding the aircraft.

Grounds for suspicion have ranged from the appearance of a person or dress to speaking a language other passengers did not understand or saying prayers before boarding the plane.

The most widely reported case is of two Asian students, Sohail Ashraf and Khurram Zeb, who were forced off a Manchester-bound flight from Spain while returning home after a holiday on August 16 when their white co-passengers refused to fly with them alleging that they may be terrorists. They were "escorted" out of the plane by airport police and questioned for several hours.

Their offence: they looked like Asians or Arabs; appeared to speak in a language that sounded like Arabic; "glanced" frequently at their watches; and wore clothes that did not suit the local climate at the time. This constituted "suspicious behaviour" in the eyes of other passengers who were able to work up enough rage to force the airline to off-load the pair. In the event, they turned out to be absolutely innocent. The two, who were born and brought up in Britain and speak English like any U.K.-born person would, described as unnerving the experience of being treated as terrorists and marched off at gunpoint.

"I can understand why people are so panicked. But just because we are Muslim does not mean we are terrorists ... We might be Asian but we're just two ordinary lads who wanted a bit of fun," Mr. Ashraf said.

A spokesman for the airline said: "There were two passengers on the flight who came to the attention of the other people because they were apparently acting suspiciously. The flight attendants were sufficiently concerned to alert the crew who in turn informed the security authorities at Malaga airport."

In another incident at Manchester airport, a British Asian pilot Amar Ashraf was removed from a U.S.-bound flight and questioned by the police who reportedly asked him whether he knew why the U.S. authorities wanted him to be off-loaded. According to him, the aircraft was ready to take off when its doors were reopened and he was told to leave on grounds that no standby passengers were allowed to fly that day.

"They told me they weren't taking any passengers on standby but I think it was racial profiling ... I feel this was discrimination," he said. Why, he asked, was he questioned by armed police if the only reason he was offloaded was that no standby passengers were being taken.

Then there was the case of a doctor from Canada, Ahmed Farooq, who was reportedly "escorted off" a United Airlines flight in Denver after reciting prayers that other passengers regarded as suspicious. In another recent incident, Azar Iqbal, a British Asian, was questioned by U.S. immigration officials as he stepped off a Delta airlines flight in Atlanta and deported back to Britain.

Other incidents have included women wearing the hijab being evicted from flights and passengers objecting to travelling with a "bearded Muslim," according to a pilots website.

In these columns I have joined issue with those who criticise the anti-terror police for keeping an extra-vigilant eye on people from certain ethnic groups. I still maintain that if there is a consistent pattern of extremists or terrorists coming from a particular community or ethnic background then that community or group would inevitably be under greater scrutiny. But what these cases illustrate goes far beyond legitimate policing and security precautions. This is vigilantism.

These incidents have a terrifying echo of the lynch mob mentality whereby a group of people are able to have someone removed simply because they do not like the look of a person or the way he or she is dressed or the language he or she speaks. Commenting on the August 16 incident on the Malaga-Manchester flight, The Independent said in an editorial: "What happened on this flight was nothing less than mob rule. Instead of standing up to the irrational fears of passengers. This does not seem to be an isolated incident. Websites used by pilots report similar cases of individuals being singled out to quell the concerns of other travellers."

Moreover, it makes nonsense of airport security checks. What is the point of pre-boarding checks if a passenger can still be barred from travelling simply on the whims of other passengers? Even as there is widespread concern over this trend towards vigilantism, it is surprising how many people actually think it is okay. The argument is that in the new post-9/11 and 7/7 world, old rules do not apply, and however distasteful such experiences might be we must "come to terms" with them given the risks involved in ignoring a perceived threat.

"Political correctness can get one killed," wrote an American reader in a letter to a British newspaper adding: "If our governments or the airline industry will not keep us safe, then we must take these things into our hands. Vigilantism is not nice: neither is dying on an exploded aircraft."

Fuelling paranoia


It was British Prime Minister Tony Blair who, after the July 7 London bombings, declared that in the new climate of terrorism the "rules of the game have changed" and it was time to suspend the old notions of human rights and individual freedoms. I am not suggesting that he was inciting the "mob" but such statements from people in his position have the unintended effect of fuelling paranoia and encouraging the notion that everything is fair in the "war" against terrorism or "Islamic fascists," to borrow a term deployed by U.S. President George W. Bush. This notion then translates itself — as we have seen in recent weeks — into a licence for people to take any action they please to enforce the new "rules of the game."

Increasingly, any criticism of police or public over-reaction to a perceived threat from terrorism is either glibly dismissed as old-fashioned political correctness or met with the condescending response: yes, we know what you mean but what do you expect people to do when anyone can turn out to be a terrorist?

Fair enough. The threat of terrorism is real and there is need not only for vigilance but for extra-vigilance against groups or communities that have allowed themselves to be hijacked by extremists. But that still does not mean that people can take the law into their own hands against those who look different from "us" or look like "them." Or are we going back to the era of witch-hunts when any "strange" looking woman was taken to be a "witch" and lynched?

The point is: would two white men, conversing in a little known European language or "glancing" frequently at their watches, have suffered the same fate that two Asian men did on that flight from Malaga to Manchester? The question often asked in such situations is: but what if they were terrorists? The answer is: but what if the person sitting next to them who had aroused no suspicion had turned out to be a terrorist?

There is no cure for paranoia. Politicians and police have contributed to this climate of paranoia by constantly raising the spectre of a terrorist attack. This is virtually handing over victory to terrorists who can claim to have succeeded in disrupting normal life and behaviour. It also benefits the xenophobes who have always regarded foreigners as fifth columnists. Now they can target them with impunity.

Europe is barely starting to recover from its terrible history of ethnic and racial prejudice. Let that history not be repeated in the name of fighting terrorism.

I picked this site because it summarized all the incidents nicely.

racial profiling is okay IMO but harming and terrorizing innocent people is not.In fact this will lead to disintegration of western societies .
you can't go to someone ,beat him up,treat him like a dog and then tell him to respect you and to accept your values.
bash me for opening this thread.I don't care.I just to know you from you people whether such methods should be continued or countries of western authorities should come up with news methods of preventing terrorism.
as I type Danish authorities have arrested 9 people for alleged plans to commit terrorism.

BTW,what happened to those Canadian terrorist suspects?sent to jail ?

Ma Deuce September 5th, 2006 06:20 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Not sure what happened to those Johnny Canucks, probably in jail right now waiting to be tried.

Yeah, it sucks. But guess what, with the exception of one psychopathic hick, every major terrorist act comitted against the United States has been done so by an arab muslim. It simply makes no sense to check nine year old white kids, or 75 year old asian grandmothers.

N88TR September 7th, 2006 04:45 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Racial Profiling is okay you say? Wasn't it innocent until proven guilty, not probably guilty but he might be innocent?

Buddy Jesus September 7th, 2006 04:56 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Amerika
Racial Profiling is okay you say? Wasn't it innocent until proven guilty, not probably guilty but he might be innocent?

Well come on use your heads people Ma Deuce is right. Who do you want to check at the airports, Mrs. Jones and her 4 year old child or or Ahmed El-Naiza who looks a bit sketch? I mean serioulsy think about it. The world at this point had become to politically correct. We're too afraid of hurting the "minorities feelings." In fact in new york several months ago due to an elevated threat to New York's subway systems the tightend security. But the police where told NOT to randomly search people who looked to be of Middle Eastern decent because they didn't want it to appear like they were doing any racial profiling. Now that's absurd.

At any rate this has nothing to do with being inoccent until being proven guilty it has to do with who poses the greatest risk.

masked_marsoe September 7th, 2006 07:03 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
No, Capt Amerika is right in that "innocent until proven guilty". Of course, many terrorist suspects don't receive trials, so they are guilty without proof. Perfect example is that of the "Tipton Three" who were held for nearly three years at Guantanamo Bay without charge or trial, or access to a lawyer. And then released as they were innocent.

Afterburner September 7th, 2006 07:20 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by masked_marsoe
No, Capt Amerika is right in that "innocent until proven guilty". Of course, many terrorist suspects don't receive trials, so they are guilty without proof. Perfect example is that of the "Tipton Three" who were held for nearly three years at Guantanamo Bay without charge or trial, or access to a lawyer. And then released as they were innocent.

Two different things really. Holding someone for a years without a trial is wrong, but I think it is perfectly fine to racially profile at airports and subways. It's logical, doesn't harm anyone, and will only cut into your time for a short while. And you've also got to realize that it isn't broad racial profiling. Not EVERY Muslim is looked at as a possible suspect. Only those who have fit the bill of previous attackers. Usually young single men. And chances are if you just look casual you won't be searched either.

masked_marsoe September 7th, 2006 07:28 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Yeah, and I'm sure you'd love being strip searched because of the colour of your skin too.

Afterburner September 7th, 2006 07:30 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by masked_marsoe
Yeah, and I'm sure you'd love being strip searched because of the colour of your skin too.

I would have no problem if it turned out I fit the bill. If it was ONLY the color of my skin that would annoy me. But if I fit the bill for what most terrorists looked and acted like then I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's not only race that is looked at.

And remember this. If you are about to fly a plane into a building or blow a plane up you will likely be a little nervous, and people will be able to see that. So it's not like they are looking closely at all Muslims. They are looking closely at young, single male Muslims who look a bit shakey or nervous.

masked_marsoe September 7th, 2006 07:39 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Once maybe. But if it happened twice. You get checked before you get on the plane, after you get off, perhaps on your way home. And it will be race, as it can be hard to tell someone's religion by just looking at them in most cases.

Quote:

Their offence: they looked like Asians or Arabs; appeared to speak in a language that sounded like Arabic; "glanced" frequently at their watches; and wore clothes that did not suit the local climate at the time.

Crazy Wolf September 7th, 2006 07:55 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
I think we need to get better people in charge of security. Perhaps set up a training program with El Al(that is the name of Israel's airlines, right?), so that the TSA knows who to look for. People acting odd, or nervous, or young males traveling alone, with a one-way ticket. Stuff like that.

N88TR September 8th, 2006 07:15 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddy Jesus
Well come on use your heads people Ma Deuce is right. Who do you want to check at the airports, Mrs. Jones and her 4 year old child or or Ahmed El-Naiza who looks a bit sketch? I mean serioulsy think about it. The world at this point had become to politically correct. We're too afraid of hurting the "minorities feelings." In fact in new york several months ago due to an elevated threat to New York's subway systems the tightend security. But the police where told NOT to randomly search people who looked to be of Middle Eastern decent because they didn't want it to appear like they were doing any racial profiling. Now that's absurd.

At any rate this has nothing to do with being inoccent until being proven guilty it has to do with who poses the greatest risk.

Do you remember when they put all Japanese/Chinese people that lived in America in concentration camps because we were warring with Japan? We were afraid that some of them were communicating with the enemy, so we had all the ones we could find and we put them under close supervision.

Do you think we should do that with all Arab-Americans, or American-Muslims?

Ma Deuce September 8th, 2006 08:05 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Amerika
Racial Profiling is okay you say? Wasn't it innocent until proven guilty, not probably guilty but he might be innocent?

Nobody said they are guilty of anything.

It would be illegal to put them in jail and such, but not illegal to hold them under special suspicion.

The Japanese relocation camps (concentration camps are where people are systematically killed, get your facts straight) were the result of public outcry, not the acts of a responsible government. Of course that was stupid and not necessary, and we aren't doing that today either, nor will we.

masked_marsoe September 8th, 2006 08:16 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Hold them for how long? A day, a week, three years? Withhold legal rights?
And I assume also that they would be held in a hotel whilst not at home?


A concentration camp is one where a lot of people are concentrated in(to) a camp. Hence the name concentration camp. A camp where people are systimatically killed would be an extermination camp, or death camp.

Nemmerle September 8th, 2006 08:37 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emir Al-Aziz
I picked this site because it summarized all the incidents nicely.
racial profiling is okay IMO but harming and terrorizing innocent people is not.In fact this will lead to disintegration of western societies .
you can't go to someone ,beat him up,treat him like a dog and then tell him to respect you and to accept your values.

Well you can, it doesn't mean they'll do it. The problem that airport security has is that if they don't do this when people say someone look suspicious and then a bomb goes off they're going to be looking at the largest law suit on the face of the planet. We're in a messed up age, but the chances are statistically speaking that a muslim/arab is more likely to be a terrorist than a person of a different origin and so they're comming in for the stick.
But you're exagerating, we don't generally beat people up accused of this sort of thing and then let them go. (Apart from that regretable mistake where someone was shot as their house was raided of course, but that was an accident.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emir Al-Aziz
I just to know you from you people whether such methods should be continued or countries of western authorities should come up with news methods of preventing terrorism.

It should continue. It is unfourtunate that a small percentage of the population has to be put to a bit of inconvinience but it decreases the chances of a plane getting blown up so it's worth it. The lives of several hundred people are worth much more than the inconvinience that a small group will be put to.

Jill September 8th, 2006 09:41 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
If you are serious about fighting terrorists..than racial profiling is necessary. If you want to waste your time searching grandmothers and little kids...then you are not serious about the war on terror.

I don't think the TSA is serious about looking for terrorists. Just last week the TSA went after two Texas Border Patrol Agents that fired at an illegal alien bad guy trying to smuggle drugs into this country. Those two agents were found guilty of violating this bad guys civil rights when he tried to sneek into this country with a van filled with drugs. They have been found guilty and will serve 20 years in prison. Ironic huh? That is our TSA for ya. They try to be politcally correct and it will bite us in the ass eventually.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...4058-4549r.htm

Truly amazing. I can't believe the TSA. Our country is in serious trouble.

Buddy Jesus September 10th, 2006 07:58 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jill
http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...4058-4549r.htm

Truly amazing. I can't believe the TSA. Our country is in serious trouble.

Wow what's next?? I mean we have 2 people in trouble for doing their jobs. I think there comes a point in every society where it becomes too encompassing, too accepting, and too forgiving. This will lead to the end of our society as we know it. Just look what happened to Rome.

GuineaPig September 10th, 2006 09:24 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ma Deuce
Not sure what happened to those Johnny Canucks, probably in jail right now waiting to be tried.

Yeah, it sucks. But guess what, with the exception of one psychopathic hick, every major terrorist act comitted against the United States has been done so by an arab muslim. It simply makes no sense to check nine year old white kids, or 75 year old asian grandmothers.

Not true. 75% of recorded "terrorist attacks" committed against the U.S. have been perpetrated by people of latin origin, according to my 2005 "State of the World" encyclo.

The only Arab attack on U.S. soil was 9/11. So are you advocating racial profiling and discrimination ONLY against arabs? I don't think you are, but clear out what it is you wanted to say.

Ma Deuce September 10th, 2006 10:00 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Just because the attack was not on US soil does not mean that it was not comitted against the US. The 1983 Beirut barracks bombing was against the US. The Cole bombing in 2000 was against the US. The 1993 World Trade Center bombing was against the US (and on our soil). The list goes on.

What I'm saying is that as unfortunate as profiling may be, to follow it is common sense.

Force Recon September 10th, 2006 11:09 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
like I said racial profiling is okay but sending an innocent guy to Gitmo is not.

Ma Deuce September 10th, 2006 11:24 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
They're at Guantanamo Bay to figure out if they are guilty or not. The problem is that we never had a system set up to try people held as terrorists, which we are paying the consequences for right now.

Jill September 10th, 2006 11:42 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emir Al-Aziz
like I said racial profiling is okay but sending an innocent guy to Gitmo is not.

Well...sometimes that is the price of war especially since INNOCENT cilivians are targeted.

Chemix2 September 10th, 2006 12:10 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Every Arab or Muslim isn't targetting civilians, just a few, you're typing like you blame all arabs for 9/11, perhaps not actively or conciously.

Jill September 10th, 2006 12:19 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chemix2
Every Arab or Muslim isn't targetting civilians, just a few, you're typing like you blame all arabs for 9/11, perhaps not actively or conciously.

True..but it seems so far that every terrorist that is targeting civilians are Muslim and Arab.

Crazy Wolf September 10th, 2006 12:21 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Well, not every, but a large majority.

Jill September 10th, 2006 12:30 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Wolf
Well, not every, but a large majority.

What other terrorists are there right now? Oh you are right. I'm sorry about that. I forgot about the Muslims in Indonesia. They are not Arab.

Crazy Wolf September 10th, 2006 12:34 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
And the few European converts who were sidetracked from mainstream Islam and decided to try their hand at "martyrdom"

Ma Deuce September 10th, 2006 12:39 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chemix2
Every Arab or Muslim isn't targetting civilians, just a few, you're typing like you blame all arabs for 9/11, perhaps not actively or conciously.

And what evidence do you have to support that?

Chemix2 September 10th, 2006 12:55 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
It was in refference to Jill's post
I support racial profiling, but not wrongful imprisonment, and it shouldn't be expected to happen without any accounting for it

Safe-Keeper September 10th, 2006 12:58 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Yeah, it sucks. But guess what, with the exception of one psychopathic hick, every major terrorist act comitted against the United States has been done so by an arab muslim. It simply makes no sense to check nine year old white kids, or 75 year old asian grandmothers.
Racist nonsense.
Timothy McVeigh, Paul Hill, and all the other abortion doctor shootings and bombings. And Richard Reich was white. You know, the shoe-bomber?
Quote:

Well come on use your heads people Ma Deuce is right. Who do you want to check at the airports, Mrs. Jones and her 4 year old child or or Ahmed El-Naiza who looks a bit sketch? I mean serioulsy think about it.
Checks should be random, and particularly directed people who act suspiciously.
And yes, do some random checks on children and elderly, too. An elderly couple was busted for smuggling narcotics at a Norse airport some years ago.
Quote:

I would have no problem if it turned out I fit the bill. If it was ONLY the color of my skin that would annoy me.
It is very often only the colour of their skin.
Quote:

It would be illegal to put them in jail and such, but not illegal to hold them under special suspicion.
Typical head-in-the-sand detention-apologist's spouting.
UN Declaration of human rights:
Article 5.
  • No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 6.
  • Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 7.
  • All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8.
  • Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9.
  • No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10.
  • Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
Article 11.
  • (1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
    (2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
Article 12.
  • No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
And if that doesn't cut it for you, there's also the US Constitution and, in the case of the prisoners-of-war, the Geneva Conventions (read the whole of Article 4, not just the part that suits you).

I'm curious (and for some reason people never answer me) as to why you people don't apply the same standards to suspected rapists and murderers. 11 000 people are killed in the US alone from guns alone. Why the trials for someone who kill so many more people than the terrorists?
Oh, no, wait, let me guess: They're not Arabs.
Quote:

The Japanese relocation camps (concentration camps are where people are systematically killed, get your facts straight) (...)
Ignorants should not accuse others of ignorance.
Death camps were where the killings occured systematically.
Concentration camps are where governments bring Jews, homosexuals, Asians, and other people prone to do evil deeds[/some irony].
Quote:

(...) were the result of public outcry, not the acts of a responsible government.
It was the act of a government. What exactly are you saying here?
Quote:

Of course that was stupid and not necessary, and we aren't doing that today either, nor will we.
Cough, Tipton Three, cough.
They capture people for being in certain mosques, for driving their taxi past certain buildings, and what the Heck have you.
Quote:

True..but it seems so far that every terrorist that is targeting civilians are Muslim and Arab.
Wait, I do support racial and religious profiling. All you'd have to do is forge a passport that says you're Christian, and you're home free! Yay!

N88TR September 10th, 2006 02:51 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ma Deuce
The Japanese relocation camps (concentration camps are where people are systematically killed, get your facts straight)

Yes that's what I meant. Sorry, but I'm glad you got what I meant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ma Deuce
were the result of public outcry, not the acts of a responsible government. Of course that was stupid and not necessary, and we aren't doing that today either, nor will we.

But I'm asking, do you think that'd be okay to do, seeing as arabian-americans and other people of middle-eastern descent get searched more at airports, and are looked at closer by security guards? Just keep them all in one place to make sure we know what they're doing?

Admiral Donutz September 11th, 2006 08:29 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emir Al-Aziz
I picked this site because it summarized all the incidents nicely.

racial profiling is okay IMO but harming and terrorizing innocent people is not.In fact this will lead to disintegration of western societies .
you can't go to someone ,beat him up,treat him like a dog and then tell him to respect you and to accept your values.
bash me for opening this thread.I don't care.I just to know you from you people whether such methods should be continued or countries of western authorities should come up with news methods of preventing terrorism.
as I type Danish authorities have arrested 9 people for alleged plans to commit terrorism.

BTW,what happened to those Canadian terrorist suspects?sent to jail ?

Agreed, Profiling to make it easier to find and watch potential terrorists is all good. However scaring the public and generalisation taking place without any people saying that is bad is not good. Some people are way too scared these days. Just because somebody acts different and is has an asian/arab look doesn't mean he or she is a terrorist. I find most of the incidents pretty hilarious and sad that involve people panicing over pretty much nothing.

Keeping your guard up is one thing, but overreacting and acting upon anyting that isn't "common" us just as bad. It creates a state of constant fear and danger and that is just ad bad if not worse. A state of constant fear is a victory to the terrorists.

Buddy Jesus September 11th, 2006 11:25 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper
UN Declaration of human rights:
Article 5.
  • No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 6.
  • Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 7.
  • All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8.
  • Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9.
  • No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10.
  • Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
Article 11.
  • (1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
    (2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
Article 12.
  • No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Well to bad the U.N. are a bunch of worthless diplomats who write documents such as this with no plan on enforcing them, i. e. Sudan, Iraq, North Korea, lest we forget dissarming Hezbollah.

Quote:

I'm curious (and for some reason people never answer me) as to why you people don't apply the same standards to suspected rapists and murderers. 11 000 people are killed in the US alone from guns alone.
I'm also am curious. Why was there so much clamor over 2600 U.S. soldiers dead in Iraq over 3 years with statistics like this...:rolleyes:

Joe Bonham September 11th, 2006 12:01 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
I really don't see any evidence of this "conspiracy". Seems us white guys get picked out as potential "terrorists" than anyone else.

Crazy Wolf September 11th, 2006 06:48 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Well, it probably helps the public image of the TSA if the random searches have it not appear as though they are searching more Arabs or Muslims than what might be considered proper. So, they might search 5 Arabs or Muslims, then search 95 others, in order to make it appear like they are not singling out any religious or ethnic group.

Joe Bonham September 12th, 2006 03:14 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Wolf
Well, it probably helps the public image of the TSA if the random searches have it not appear as though they are searching more Arabs or Muslims than what might be considered proper. So, they might search 5 Arabs or Muslims, then search 95 others, in order to make it appear like they are not singling out any religious or ethnic group.

So basically, for every one Muslim/Arab with a complaint about security, there are a hundred, or a thousand, other people with a similar complaint.

So where exactly is this "racism" we seem to be talking about here? Because I sure as heck don't see any.

GuineaPig September 13th, 2006 04:45 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jill
True..but it seems so far that every terrorist that is targeting civilians are Muslim and Arab.

Terrorists target civilians. It's the ideal way to create fear, which is the only useful weapon "terrorists have".

The IRA targets civilians
The Tamil Tigers targets civilians
The FLQ targets civilians
The Ulster Loyalists targets civilians

The list goes on...

And then there are Christian terrorist organizations that target civilians, like The Army of God, God's Army, the KKK, Lord's Resistance Army (recently disbanded, but killed 12,000 + civilians and forced 2 million from their homes. These guys are much more effective than Al Quaeda!), and more.

It's pure ignorance that people think the only "terrorists" are Muslim.
In this way, some groups are mislabeled terrorists (such as Hezbollah).

And Buddy Jesus, think not 2,600 U.S. deaths, but the 40,000+ Iraqis. And, does that mean you're saying that we should combat crime in the U.S., or that the Iraq war is actually no big deal?

Crazy Wolf September 13th, 2006 04:51 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Uh, Hezbollah is called a terrorist group because it targets civilian centers. Even if it did not start out with that goal, using that method would make it a terrorist group, by your definition.

-DarthMaul- September 13th, 2006 06:37 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
You all dont know this but this actually creates alot of hate in turn from the targeting of innocent muslims or arabs randobly at air ports..What do you think these arabs and muslims do when this happens to them and they get back home? Thier family calls up, why are you late? They held me up on suspicion..its because I am Arab or Muslim. Family gets a little pissed and calls the rest of the family back at arabia, then they all hear about how racist they are in the west, and how they hold up people on basis of religion or ethnicity. Then people get angrier and UNDERSTAND why people hate the west..

Your little racial profiling is gonna actually hurt you over time trust me. I can understand your fears. But the rest of arabs and muslims cant really do jack-shit about it. We have our own problems. Alot of us want a Democracy, and alot of us live in constant poverty(Well not all) and hostility, and racial profiling from our own governments(atleast the muslims in egypt that want a democracy) We want to get rid of our dictatorial leaders..And ironically we want to do it ourselves without outside help. when we stabelise our region, I trust "Islamic"(or muslim wanna bes) terrorism will decline sharply, because even we wont sit for it.

Commissar MercZ September 13th, 2006 06:54 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
It's unfair imo, but if they want to do it, they can do it. Unfortunately, for everytime I go to the airport, we're usually pulled to the side due to my father's name or our country of origin, being Iraq on his American passport. But I've got nothing to hide, honestly. It's a nuiscance, but there's really nothing we can do. Every country needs some minority to blame their problems on. Blacks, Mexicans, European Immigrants to America, Jews, Slavs. Muslims have been chosen for most of the West now. I mean, most of the Terrorists are usually from the Arabs from the Arabian peninsula, and you can tell when they're going to do something big.

Middle-Easterners really, in all honestly, want to have a better life. They wouldn't mind westernization, it's just that the numerous Sheiks, Amirs, mullahs, and royalty do not want to give up the power they have, and make sure that much of their people will never get an opportunity at education.

There is no real democracy in the Middle-East. The Turks say they have a "Democratic" nation, but it is usually under the influence of the Military and anti-minority sentinments. Most of the Middle-East are just people trying to find a way to get better. Turks are trying to modernize their economy, Iranians were doing the same until the Revolution, some nations in the Arabian Peninsula, and maybe Egypt to an extent. Kurds in Northern Iraq (Far more stable than the rest of the region) have been building up their infrastructure, and have created a nice little economy. They have offices in Qatar now, and contractors are looking for ways to take their projects there.

But in all fairness, I've seen a couple of regular people get pulled over for checks. It's not too intrusive, they mainly throw the bags through a scanner, and I'm usually out by 5 minutes or so. They're usually pretty nice to us; they don't give us bad glares or glances. I just feel it's unfair fo r some ignorant people to justify scanning people of "questionable" origin due to those nutty mullahs and extremists they dig up on the media.

Joe Bonham September 14th, 2006 01:26 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

It's pure ignorance that people think the only "terrorists" are Muslim.
The only terrorists who threaten US are Muslim. I doubt the LRA is planning to take out New York. ;)

Quote:

In this way, some groups are mislabeled terrorists (such as Hezbollah).
Well let's put it this way: They're not G.I. Joe!

GuineaPig September 14th, 2006 03:37 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Machiavelli's Apprentice
The only terrorists who threaten US are Muslim. I doubt the LRA is planning to take out New York. ;)

There are a couple extremist Latin groups that have it in for America, but for the most part you are correct. I was just correcting Jill's statement that the "only terrorists who target civilians are Muslims".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machiavelli's Apprentice
Well let's put it this way: They're not G.I. Joe!

True, but in many other countries they would be called "freedom fighters". They were created to fight the Israeli invasion and occupation of Lebanon during the mid-90s, and have for the most part limited their attacks to only IDF personnel. They use conventional weaponry and tactics, and operate similar to an army.

Afterburner September 14th, 2006 03:47 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GuineaPig
True, but in many other countries they would be called "freedom fighters". They were created to fight the Israeli invasion and occupation of Lebanon during the mid-90s, and have for the most part limited their attacks to only IDF personnel. They use conventional weaponry and tactics, and operate similar to an army.

They should have disbaned after Isreal left then, shouldn't they have? They are dedicated to the destruction of Isreal, that is easily considered a terrorist goal.

masked_marsoe September 14th, 2006 04:14 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GDICommando
The Turks say they have a "Democratic" nation, but it is usually under the influence of the Military and anti-minority sentinments.

So do the Americans.

Afterburner, what about the Israelis returning. Isn't that a decent reason to stay ready?

Crazy Wolf September 14th, 2006 06:02 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
The Israelis returned because Hezbollah felt like continuing their fight, after the Israelis left the battle. So, Hezbollah kinda brought the most recent invasion on themselves.

Afterburner September 14th, 2006 06:53 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by masked_marsoe
So do the Americans.

:vikki:
Quote:

Afterburner, what about the Israelis returning. Isn't that a decent reason to stay ready?
Isreali invades Lebanon, Hezbollah fights back and kicks them out. And then Hezbollah continues to attack Isreal after Isreal leaves. Then Isreal invades to get rid of Hezbollah. Hezbollah could better defend Lebanon by NOT ATTACKING ISREAL.

masked_marsoe September 14th, 2006 08:37 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
Sad, but true. In fact this thread is about that ;).

Go talk to Hassan Nasarayllah about what Hizbollah should have done, not me. But, had Hizbollah disbanded in 2000, what would be there to stop the Israelis attacking again?

Crazy Wolf September 14th, 2006 08:52 PM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
There would be no need for Israel to secure their borders and cities from attack, so they would not attack. Tada, the Israelis don't attack again!

I am guessing that Israel dos not like having to attack its neighbors. I mean, it'd suck if the USA had to constantly fight Canada or Mexico, and it did suck when Germany constantly attacked France and Eastern Europe. I know, an exaggeration.

Force Recon September 15th, 2006 01:16 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
yes.I started this thread about how you would treat terrorist suspects.It looks like most of them have been detained for no reason.
can anyone tell me how many people have been detained after the 9/11 incident?

masked_marsoe September 15th, 2006 01:28 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
There were 505 in Guantanamo Bay as of November 7th, 2005.

On November 5, 2001, the Department of Justice announced that it had placed 1,182 people into secret custody since September 11th. (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0803-02.htm)

I don't think there are any complete figures out there, given the secretive nature of it, the time frame, and the cross-nation involvements.

Medhiv September 15th, 2006 04:04 AM

Re: fighting terrorism or Witch-hunts in mid air?
 
you see ... there is actually no "war on terrorism" ... because a war is defined by something like, when 2 armies are fighting ... i think right now we can all agree on that point ... so what we have here, u can't even describe as a war in any kind of term ... you got america & uk on one side and a few thousand hardcore-facists on the other side ...
that's no war ... that's called gambling ... they are trying to eliminate bin-laden now for 5 years ... and even so, being dead he would only live up to be a hero for his followers ... and as said in the article above ... they are already winning ... because their greatest goal has nearly been achieved ... people are scared to death ... of just about anything that's somehow alien to them ...
and about that flying thing ... you'd be just surprised to see how suspicious people look at you sometimes even if you're not dark-skinned ... i for my part am pale-white, average tall, nothing special ... saying terrorist or so ..... so i flew to NY with a couple of friends this summer ... and we're all mixed up a bit, mostly russian+serbian ... you'd be quite surprised how many people started to feel uncomfortable when we began babbling in serbian ... as if we've already taken over the plane ...!
thank god, they didn't offload us aswell ... but things are surely getting worse and worse ... especially america ... :uhm: :uhm: :uhm:


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