And So It Begins
 

As most of the Americans should know, two nights ago(Tuesday) there were elections were held for minor public offices and the like. One of the worst outcomes was the banning of firearms in San Francisco. The other two major cities that have firearms barred previously are Washington DC and Chicago. I can't help but wonder how long it'll be until all of our "freedoms" are stripped from us.

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And hasn't crime gone down in Chicago? I'm not up on the statistics, but I'm sure you'll provide some to back up your position... I should hope you would, anyhow.

Prove that banning firearms has been detrimental for Chicago and Washington DC.

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hmm, the thing is with banning guns is yes, there are less weapons that can potentially harm someone, however, thinking that banning guns will get them out of the hands of criminals is ridiculous.

however, some facts say otherwise:
http://www.ghananationalcouncil.org/crime.htm

i also find this theory for the decreases interesting:

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banning of firearms? you're kidding!

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Well then it's easier to see who the bad guys are, isn't it?

Making sacrifices for the greater good is part of what it means to be a responsible adult. Some people don't seem to understand this, and use the constitution as a means of covering up their own selfishness. People do not need weapons just for the sake of having them. In fact I daresay for most normal people, having a weapon would make them more of a target, because they likely don't have the training to use it properly, and any criminal who knows how to fire a gun would know this.

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Not as ridiculous as handing out more and more firearms to counter the threat of being shot by one.

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It actually went up in Chicago after that dick Daley banned handguns. Gun crime went up in London 40% after firearms were banned.

Making guns illegal only worsens the problem.

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Fine, but if you're going to go handing guns to people, make sure they know how to use them, so they don't end up shooting themselves.

And make sure they know how to store them, so their kids don't go around accidentally shooting their little brothers.

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criminals will get guns no matter what.

If you are armed, and they know it, there is less of a chance that they will threaten you, or burglarize your home, because they will get thier head blown off.

THis however is not an excuse to just hand out guns, they still need some strict rules as to who can own guns, tracking of weapons and proper training.

Its a balancing act, as with most things. Dont ban guns, but dont allow the US to turn into a country of outlaws.

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And then what? All too often some horrible "tragedy" occurs, and everyone cries. Why? Because these people had to have a gun, and left it out in the open for something awful to happen.

I think I'd rather be shot/burglarized than know I was to cause for someone's death because of my incompetence. Accidents happen, but when accidents happen with a gun, there's no going back. There's no "oops, I'm sorry."

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The problem is that if you want to defend yourself with a gun you have to keep it loaded somewhere near you. If it is locked away with ammunition in a different place (which is the most safe option for those with children) it won't help you much.

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So solution: if you have children, don't have a gun.

That's a choice of what's important: Your safety, or your children's safety. Most paren'ts would say the latter, but the question is are they being truthful...?

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so i guess we should ban cars to, because someone had to drive the car while intoxicated and end up hitting a kid.

Also, most incidents with guns are not accidental. Just because you hear on the news about a kids shooting himself while playing with a gun doesnt mean its a constant occurance.

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Nah. Ban alcohol.

I wouldn't mind banning cars, though. I can walk to school.

How about we just ban idiots?

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According to irnyi everything needs to be banned and we all have to live in padded rooms.

If you have kids teach them how to properly use the gun and how to store it correctly.

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You want to teach five year olds how to use a gun? How about we just drop them in a school and say "Okay now, go shoot the teachers"?

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The gun is the instrument that causes the death, just as the car is the intrument that causes the death of the pedestrian.

if only it were that easy :D

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I wish it were that easy, then we wouldn't have to have this discussion.

Unfortunately it's not as simple as banning guns, or banning cars. That's the "quick fix", which doesn't fix anything at all.

I'm sorry, I was playing the devil's advocate. I don't really believe in banning guns - in fact I agree with you that it makes more problems than there originally were. However handing out guns to everyone and their mother isn't the solution either.

The problem is not in the guns themselves, but the ease in acquiring one. I'm not talking about gun regulations either, because I doubt most criminals go out and get their weapons legally anyway. Something needs to be done about the people, becuase as you said, the gun is only a tool. If criminals can't get guns, they'll use something else.

It's kind of like a weed. Pull the weed out and it'll be gone for a while, but it'll be back. Kill the roots, and you've solved the problem.

If only it were a simple task...

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Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Ban guns and we be killing each other with knifes. Ban knifes then we be using rocks. Pretty soon there gonna have to ban humans.

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I already suggested that, but they poo pooed my idea :( ........:p

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Although killing people with guns is a lot easier and safer for the robber than using a knife which you can effectively counter with pepper spray, club or martial arts or just run away.

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I don't know if banning guns in the states is a very good idea. There's so many firearms in circulation there so it would do more harm than good.

IMO Sweden has the perfect gun law (well nothing is perfect but it's pretty damn close).

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The most effective way to hindre the sales of a certain product, be it firearms, alcohol, drugs, condoms whatever, is to regulate high prices and low avaliability.

The stats from UK showing 40% rise in gunrelated crimes after the ban is only logic seeing as whoever didnt turn in or registrate their firearm will be included.

The US addiction to firearms is hilarious. Arming yourself to the teeth to protect home and country from yourselves..

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....they uh..overprotect themselves.
hey let's invent lightsabers and instead of gunfights we will have..:saber:

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For the USA it is too late to ban guns, too many people have them and you will never be able to retreave them all. When the amount of guns in a nation is small you can ban them wihtout much problems, the avarage criminal won't have acces to a gun either then, and robbing some place or a person with a knife is a lot harder then whn you have a gun. That is why I agree with the ban on guns in the Netherlands (and most other European countries), it's a lot saver here without everybody running around with guns.

However in the states "all" criminals already have atleast one gun so taking the gun away from the avarage citizen would do more harm then good. This doesn't mean you should be able to obtain them easily though. Restrictions such as a mandatory course for gun owners on how to use a weapon (firing it, maintenance, storage etc.) would be needed. We don't let people drive cars without proving they are worthy of a lisence (though the tests to prove you are worthy of one seem far to simple in the USA) and the same should go for guns. This exam would consist of both a practical and theoretical exam.

I do think that the police should be able to confiscate your gun if you are clearly not using it properly (you have a loaded gun laying around in the livingroom with kids running around) be it temporarily or permanent. A "three times and you are out" policy wouldn't hurt I think? Be caught with inproper use of guns three times and you lose your gun and lisence.

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Wait ban guns then we be making home made guns. Don't forget about the Potato gun you can make with some Pipe. Then we go back making crossbows. Their gonna have to ban anything harmful. So say good buy to the human race.

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baseball bats,too then?

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A gun's very purpose it to kill, a car's is not. Its too late to ban guns in America because too many people have one now but I wouldnt support making guns legal in any other countries that they arent legal in.

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A handgun, assault rifle, or combat shotgun's very purpose is to kill.

The very purpose of this pistol is to shoot paper targets.

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/image...Mark-I-web.jpg

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And salt.

That's the point. It's not the object that's harmful, but how you use it.

-Guns are not harmful unless you shoot someone.
-Baseball bats are not harmful unless you hit someone.
-Salt is not harmful if you consume it in moderation.
-Alcohol is not harmful if you drink it responsibly.

And on and on... people need to learn how to behave themselves is all.

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And what gun to you wish to "defend" yourself with? A handgun, designed to kill or the one for shooting paper?

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Indeed. Its not the thing that we use to kill some one who killed it. Its the person doing it. We ban guns we will be using other things to kill each other like we use to do in the olden days with crossbowls, swords, knife, fire, rocks, and other things.

@IR15H guns are not made to kill some one. They can be use for many things. Hunting for food, defending, and many other things. People who want to ban guns are the same morons that think eating animals is evil and cutting down trees are evil.

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:rofl:

Sorry, but that cracks me up. If eating animals is evil, then every normal carnivore on this planet is evil. Some people are idiots... God didn't give us incisors for no reason! That's another discussion entirely, however...

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I didnt say kill someone, i said to kill. With a gun do you defend yourself by throwing it at them or shooting (and maybe killing) them? The purpose of a car is for transportation, there is a distiction betweent the two. I also object to you calling me a moron and your assumptions on what views I hold over eating animals or deforestation.

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To some one like a killer to them a Car can be made to kill. It all comes down to the person using it. Not "What its made for" but how you use it. Just like good and evil. Use a gun or a car for good or not. Guns don't kill people, its the person using it. No matter what you do we humans will use other things has weapons. Any thing can be made to kill. Like I said before in this thread. There gonna have to ban humans because we are made to kill. Also I wasn't calling you a moron unless you are some one who thinks eating aniamls is evil and cutting down trees are evil.

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Its to late to ban guns in the US, people will find ways to find a nine somewhere. BUT, i do think they need to find better ways to controll and track weapons. No more stupid serial ingraved on the outside of the gun, but in a place where grinding it down would cause the weapon to stop functioning. A permit showing you know how to fire, aim and maintain a weapon. Also anyone with a history abusing alcohol, or violence in general should not be able to buy a gun.

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No, a guns purpose is to kill, that is what it is designed for, if it were not our soldiers would not be using guns but cars to kill enemy soliders. You might find it difficult to mug/rob someone with a car.

Look at the statistics of gun related crime then compare it to car realted crime (as in deliberate runinng down of people) The guns stats are far higher. This to me sugests that guns help contribute to more violent (and lethal) behaviour. Of course im not suggesting that everyone with a gun is a maniac that wants to kill someone, what I am saying however that it offers a greater and easier temptaion to do so.

Yes but a gun makes it easier to kill people.

I didnt say ban guns, its too late for America, I do think its a bad thing that they were made legal in the first place tho.

You said anyone who wants guns banned also thinks eating animals or deforestation is evil.

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I'm going to have to argue with you on this one, on the behalf of history.

Guns were "legal" in the first place because it was almost impossible to survive without them. They were used to fend off wild animals, hunt, and protect yourself from thieves and bandits.

Remember, there hasn't always been a supermarket. Guns have been with us since the birth of our country, and they've been with those of other countries for much longer. Saying they never should have been legal in the first place is saying people should have fended off bears with a stick and a shoe.

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We didnt survive before the invention of guns? It not quite the same, using a gun for hunting and using a gun to "defend" yourself is slightly different. In the UK you are allowed to posess a shotgun or rifle, if you are a member of a home office approved hunting club and you have the required licence. You are not allowed a gun to "defend" yourself. Many other countries that used guns for hunting have imposed stricter laws than those in America, to me allowing everyone to have a gun seems slightly stupid, sorry. Its like saying every country should be able to possess nuclear weapons, to "defend themselves", something that the US government trys hard to stop, this is a contradiction of allowing everyone to "defend" themselves.

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I never said everyone should have a gun, I just said that I don't think your brain was reaching back far enough into history when you made that particular comment.

Yes, we could have survived without guns, but firearms made survival back then much easier. I'm talking about the 15, 16, 1700's, mind you. At a certain point the times changed, but guns never did.

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Very well, but guns have changed since then, most noteably in their accuracy, the first types of guns were c*ap, also they were not in the possesion of the average citizen.

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How many firearms pr. head in the civ population of the US?
How many deaths by firearms each year?

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For home defense we have two firearms. My father's is a Beretta 96 Inox chambered in .40 Smith and Wesson. I have a Wilson Combat CQB .45. I keep a firearm in a safe in my closet, since my father is gone on business trips quite often, and I have been shooting since I was 10 years old. We also own a Smith and Wesson Model 41 target pistol chambered in .22 long rifle. If I shot someone in the head with that gun at a distance of 50 yards, they would live.

Those are three of the many firearms owned by my family. If anyone wants to know the others, just let me know.

I have had to pull out a firearm once, although I did not use it. Some jackass was trying to break into my car when I was walking over. I took out the pistol and told him to walk away while he still can. Technically, below the knees isn't deadly force.

Irish, Inryi and I live in the same city. We are both aware of how our mayor's crusade against guns have made crime worse in our fair town. So I suggest you just stop right now with trying to change our minds, it isn't gonna happen.

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of course we all know criminals cant get guns....because the black market and the underground are FAKE!

drug lords with their little militias? FAKE! no way can they own guns, that would be impossible. :uhoh:


gimme a break, once you take the guns away from the law abiding citizens, you give full access to the criminals to do what they want. it's a lame excuse to disarm America...yet people buy it like its the day before Christmas.



and my favourite quote regarding the subject:

‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’
— Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

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:uhh::wtf:

OMG LOOK AT THE STATISTICS!!!!!11 Bah. A guns purpose is NOT TO kill. Its purpose is a tool. Only time somthing is ment to kill is when some one makes it a tool to kill for that person. Meaning EVERYTHING is ment to kill because ANYTHING can be made to kill. Anything purpose can be made to kill.
We humans have a purpose to kill when we need food so guess now your gonna have to ban us since we have a purpose to kill animals when we need food.

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I have nothing against people having firearms, hell, I'm all for it. I do however have something against that the avarage Joe can go down to the local shop and buy himself an assault rifle (no, they don't have to be automatic, lets not take that discussion again ;)) and a handgun without any training in how to handle firearms whatsoever! I don't know about you guys but that would scare the shite out of me.
I know, I always brings this up in firearms discussions, but here you can get a free AK-4 (aka H&K G3) if you want. Does that scare me? No, because to get it you must do atleast the basics in the army.

Btw, does anyone have a "firearms per capita" list? I'd like to see if Sweden has more firearms per capita than USA. I've googled for it but I can't find anything :(.

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Indeed. Guns are meant to shoot projectiles at high speed. Not their fault if a projectile just so happens to kill someone... They have just evolved into a weapon of mere killing, which is unfortunate.

Anybody for shooting clay pigeons.. eh?

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I trap shoot all the time. Own a Benelli Montefeltro, a 12 guage semi-automatic field gun. Great for popping orange clay birds. ;)

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My dad did that once in Canada, on a fishing trip. Shot two of them, looked down at the shotgun, said "What the hell am I doing?" and went back inside the cabin.

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I just have a 12 guage shotgun and a 20 guage. My uncle does have a AKA 47 though :) I love that thing. Its sooo nice.