Let me make some thing(s) clear.

[TheMirage]

I have endured so many attacks on the church this year that its making me sick. I therefore have decided to do what I can to help bring about peace and understanding. The following issues paticularly, have created problems;

(note, these are the veiws of the CATHOLIC church, but its all pretty much the same to aethists right? after all, catholics hold very similar veiws to most other christians)

Gay Marraige/Homosexuality: The church does NOT say all homosexuals sre going to hell. We DO NOT ban them from our churches. However, it is not "okay" be be gay. Homosexuality is a state of sin. Marraige and sex are between a man and a woman so that they may come to love eachother, understand eachother, and create and raise a familiy in a healthy moral way.
That is the purpose of marraige, not just for couples to have sex and then leave. It is to create love and understanding between people of opposite genders and to make a healthy family.

Abortion: Abortion is wrong. Period. Life begins at conception and killing an unborn child is the same as killing a 45-year-old man. Its murder.
Even biology says: the smallest unit of life is a cell. The human egg is a cell, a fetus is multiple cells, and of human life. It can't be a carrot or a rabbit, it is a human, and as soon as it consists of a cell or more, it is alive. The fetus is alive, and is a person. Killing it is WRONG!

Any questions and I will be glad to answer tem. If, however, you attack me or the church, I will not respond, that not why I'm here.

[Dreadnought[DK]]

Originally Posted by TheMirage

note, these are the veiws of the CATHOLIC church, but its all pretty much the same to aethists right?

However, it is not "okay" be be gay. Homosexuality is a state of sin.

if you don't believe in a god, the idea of sinning is irrelevant.

Marraige and sex are between a man and a woman(1) so that they may come to love eachother, understand eachother(2), and create and raise a familiy(3) in a healthy moral way.(4)

1) that is a question of definition, unless you are talking about 'holy marriage' in which case it's irrelevant for atheists because they don't believe in a god.
2) you don't have to be bound to each other in order to love and understand each other. some people just choose to for various reasons.
3) marriage is not a necessity for procreation.
4) morals are arbitrary unless you are religious. if you are an don't believe in a god, you choose your morals from other sources than the church.

Abortion is wrong. Period

this is what my old teacher would call a sweeping statement. that kind of percetion is based on the idea that everybody thinks the same way. people don't think the same way.

Life begins at conception and killing an unborn child is the same as killing a 45-year-old man. Its murder.

but what about intelligence? if you believe in the above you will inevitably meet some problems justifying eating an orange or cutting the grass on your lawn. those things are organic and are as such living too.

Even biology says: the smallest unit of life is a cell. The human egg is a cell, a fetus is multiple cells, and of human life. It can't be a carrot or a rabbit, it is a human, and as soon as it consists of a cell or more, it is alive. The fetus is alive, and is a person. Killing it is WRONG!

see above

If, however, you attack me or the church, I will not respond, that not why I'm here.

this is not an attack on catholicism. i'm trying to explain why some people disagree with what the church says. those arguements are based on the assumption that you believe in the same things the church does.

[TheMirage]

but what about intelligence? if you believe in the above you will inevitably meet some problems justifying eating an orange or cutting the grass on your lawn. those things are organic and are as such living too.

But a human embryo isn't those things, its a human life. and killing humans is wrong unless its self-defense.
I already said, the embryo isn't"a rabbit or a carrot, its a human life. It can't be anything else"

1) that is a question of definition, unless you are talking about 'holy marriage' in which case it's irrelevant for atheists because they don't believe in a god.

The church recognizes only one kind of marraige, what you would call "holy marraige".
that is the only marraige there is. Of corse, it can be marrige in any faith, but not anything else.
its this way because of the idea of the familiy I referred to. It must be marraige in the church so that it will help streghthen the marraige and the familiy. And I'm sure there are other reasons, but obviously I'm no preist, so I do only the best I can

[-Logic-Is-A-Virtue-]

The state sees marraige only as a contract between two people for the purpose of finacial support and reproduction, at least in Nevada. Now how can you have reproduction without both sexes being a part of this contract? Gay "marraige" doesn't fit this definition and is therefor not a marraige, it is mearly a partnership. It should not share the name with something that is completely different and have two seperate goals.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by -Logic-Is-A-Virtue-

Now how can you have reproduction without both sexes being a part of this contract?

How can you have reproduction if the one of the two sexes is infertile?

[-Logic-Is-A-Virtue-]

You marry with the intent or possibilty of reproduction. When you are of the same sex you can't so either.

[Spartan]

And so, according to your logic, if a man was born with a birth defect that left him without any possibility of having children, he is only allowed to form a partnership with a woman.

[-Logic-Is-A-Virtue-]

No he is allowed to form a partnership with anyone he wants, but he is not allowed to marry another man, that is why I believe in civil unions for both straight and gay people. In a civil union you are going into a partnership without the intent of reproduction. If you do have a kid though it is not considered a civil union but a marraige.

[Spartan]

Maybe I should rephrase my previous statement...

And so, according to your logic, if a man was born with a birth defect that left him without any possibility of having children, he is only allowed to form a partnership with a woman, not a marriage.

I happen to believe a man should be allowed to marry a woman, no matter the state of his reproductive systems.

[Nemmerle]

Originally Posted by TheMirage

But a human embryo isn't those things, its a human life. and killing humans is wrong unless its self-defense.
I already said, the embryo isn't"a rabbit or a carrot, its a human life. It can't be anything else"

Up until a certain point these are just biological machines.
That it is a ‘human’ life does not make it worth anymore than a carrots ‘life’ or a rabbits ‘life’.
When does something stop being a machine and become human?
The simple truth is that after all these years we still don’t know what it is to be human. One thing we can be sure of however is that so long as something remains purely a machine, biologically based or not, it cannot qualify as human.