Rommel - 1891-1944

[Admiral Donutz]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought[DK]

so it's ok to participate in genocide as long as you're told to do it?

no ofcourse not, this would call for a coup or assassination of the CiC. Ordering soldiers to commit brutal murders is wrong, very wrong (hell it would even go against the miliairy code). Obeying combat orientaed orders (even when you disagree with the reason to go to battle) is a must. Obeying orders to murder isn't. The heer (german army) followed the orders to start a war not to kill jews. These orders where given to the Waffen SS, these unfortunatly ordered heer divisions to assist them. The true soldiers refuses to commit outrate murder, some assisted because they where afraid of their own lifes and the rest where very happy to assist the waffen SS, exact percentages are impossible to tell but in general the Heer looked down upon the Waffen SS they where never considered a real army by the heer.

[Dreadnought[DK]]

it still doesn't change the fact that they participated, willingly or not, and for that they are guilty.

[!moof]

I think the admiration of Rommel could be best compared to that of Robert E. Lee. (If any non-Americans are blanking, he was the commander of the Army of Northern Virginia for the Confederacy.) Both fought out of a feeling of duty and always conducted themselves honorably.

P.S. Rommel actually collaborated with the assassins when he discovered the concentration camps. They would not be known to a general busy conducting a war in Africa.

[MK.]

The Allies were defending against aggression.

Note that the Soviet Union, an ally to the United States and Great Britain, was also one of the aggressors of World War II. The USSR invaded numerous sovereign nations, including Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Poland. It's also speculated that, had Germany not invaded first, the Soviet Union would have eventually pushed farther into western Europe.

They were no better than Nazi Germany, invading countries for the same primary reason: territory. Your beloved Allies cooperated and supported the USSR, so they are no less guilty.

yeah, i know. they declared in Defence of Poland. what were they to do? sit back and let Hitler steam roller across Europe?

An isolated German-Polish war does not constitute "steam rolling across Europe."

In any event, the Allies didn't care about Poland. They sat idly by and let Germany and the Soviet Union dissect the country, and after the war they just let Poland disappear under the iron curtain.

Germany signed an agreement, complying with all the terms in the Treaty of Versailles, so that land was 'righfully' Polish.

Even the United States, of all countries, believed that the Treaty of Versailles was too harsh and refused to ratify it.

i am also fully aware of the implications of supporting Hitler.

Now, perhaps, but place yourself in the shoes of the typical German conscript of WWII. You have no idea of the atrocities or other crimes. As far as you're concerned, you're fighting a just war for a united Europe.

well if it wasnt for WWII we wouldnt have microwave ovens and modern military equipment like the hummer AND THE JET FIGHTER!

You can thank the Germans for the jet fighter, the assault rifle, as well as the initial Soviet and American space programs, among other things.

[!moof]

Originally Posted by MK.

Note that the Soviet Union, an ally to the United States and Great Britain, was also one of the aggressors of World War II. The USSR invaded numerous sovereign nations, including Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Poland. It's also speculated that, had Germany not invaded first, the Soviet Union would have eventually pushed farther into western Europe.

1. We aren't condoning Stalin's actions.
2. How much farther could he have pushed without the same thing happening to him that happened to Hitler?

They were no better than Nazi Germany, invading countries for the same primary reason: territory. Your beloved Allies cooperated and supported the USSR, so they are no less guilty.

1. We had to supprt the Soviets, to stop Hitler. "Enemy of my enemy who also happens to havr a massive army is my friend".

An isolated German-Polish war does not constitute "steam rolling across Europe."

Austria, Czechoslovakia, the Rhineland, Poland. That is a pattern of imperialist aggression. Poland was not isolated. Hitler intended to create a massive empier in Europe, which could not be condoned.

In any event, the Allies didn't care about Poland. They sat idly by and let Germany and the Soviet Union dissect the country, and after the war they just let Poland disappear under the iron curtain.

1. We did, but the Soviets already occupied Poland. We couldn't well start a new "hot" war. Instead, we took Poland back through the Cold War.

Even the United States, of all countries, believed that the Treaty of Versailles was too harsh and refused to ratify it.

It was too harsh, but that wasn't why the U.S. didn't ratify it. The U.S. didn't ratify the Treaty because of the League of Nations, which Congress opposed.

Now, perhaps, but place yourself in the shoes of the typical German conscript of WWII. You have no idea of the atrocities or other crimes. As far as you're concerned, you're fighting a just war for a united Europe.

True. I think the Nuremburg defense is fair, even if it seems weak.

You can thank the Germans for the jet fighter, the assault rifle, as well as the initial Soviet and American space programs, among other things.

And 6 million dead Jews. Pros and Cons, bud.

[Anlushac11]

Originally Posted by Interloper

You read wrong. Hitler did not provide Rommel with any of the supplies needed to hold the front, and did not plan to send the Waffers into North Africa.

It had nothign to do with Hitler. Please actually read a history book before commenting. History Channel doesnt count.

The Allies seized control of the shipping lanes bringing supplies to Rommel and when the sea lanes were cut off the Germans and Italians tried flying over supplies and were slaughtered over the Med by Allied aircraft operating from North Africa and more importantly Malta.

In effect the Allies cut off Rommels supplies. IIRC Rommel needed 1000-1500 tons a month and was occasionaly getting 500 tons a month. Rommels failure at first Battle of El Alamein huinged on the safe arrival of a Italian freighter carrying 5,000gallons of fuel. The tanker made it into the harbor but was torpedoed and sunk at anchorage. Withouit fuel Rommel had to fall back and prepare defensive positions.

Rommels refusal of the SS in North Africa is mentioned in his memoirs.

[GunsOfBrixton29]

Did Rommel support the Nazi ideals and beliefs?

[Chiefy]

Originally Posted by MK.

Even the United States, of all countries, believed that the Treaty of Versailles was too harsh and refused to ratify it.

I know the Treaty was harsh, that's not what I was arguing about. Germany signed it and therefore it was legal, and so was Poland's land. That's all I'm saying.

[JP(NL)]

Originally Posted by AzH

no, JP, that's crap. The Allies were defending against aggression. the Nazis & their man Rommel were the agressors. therefore, Allied Commanders did what they had to to end the war and stop Hitler's war machine from dominating Europe.

that is the very real difference between Axis & Allies. the reason why they fought.

Perhaps. The Russians fought for their freedom, their nation, their families, for Stalin. Good reasons, no? Do these motives give them the right to go pillaging, raping, abusing and killing the native German population of the lands they seized?

I am well aware the germans did the same to the native Slavic populations, but still.

i answered yes, and i justified that answer. stop being a prick and making remarks like this.

I was pissed because my grandma died.

(I know I've been a prick in general the last couple of weeks aswell. I blame puberty.)

[Revenge]

I sure do hope you didn't spend hours writing all that, Grob. I didn't bother reading it: I have seen enough programs on the various History channels I get to last me a few more years. I'm sure it was good though!

This may have been featured in your lecture, but Rommel, although deemed a traitor by Hitler, was given a heroes burial. Letting the funeral happen was Hitlers last thankyou for his service.

Did you know: The plans for the funeral and who would speak and what would be sung etc. were started before Rommel was even dead. Thats just sad.