Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

no, he fired the generals (or any other officer) who dared to question him and installed generals who supported him or atleast where "neatral"/"didn't open their mouths". The generals where command to fight this war, they ordered there troops to fight. I totally agree that orders are orders, unfortunatly those orders where wrong. One simply can't have an army where everybodyes makes up his own mind. Ofcourse it is ok to critize your commander and tell him that he is wrong, disobeying his orders is an other thing however. Look at the sovjet army during ww2: if all those soldiers would have made up there own mind, if all those officers where allowed to make up there own mind the might sovjet army would have collapsed since officers and soldiers would refuse to go in a battle that probably could be suicidal (but saving the rest of the country of a defeat in the mean time however).

I myself probably would have obeyed those orders if i where an officer in thegerman army (or any other army) but i also would have supported a coop or plan to take out the CiC (commander in chief).

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

so it's ok to participate in genocide as long as you're told to do it?

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

Point is, the SS were the ones who were in control of the offing of the jews, if the regular army did do anything like that it would have been because they were under "DIRECT" control. And getting back to what we were talking about, You do as your commanded no way around that.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

so in the end there only one man carrying all responsibility...

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

Not really, It was hitler, and the puppet masters behind hitler. Namely the ones who jump ship with all the gold and the resupply U-boat, and left hitler holding the gun with the smoking barrel.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

no, the point is that many people in the 'regular army' were fully aware of the attrocities being carried out across Europe and they didn't do anything about it.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

What could a handful of random soldiers across the ranks of the regular german army do? Say "hell no we won't go?" I doubt that starship would fly with the SS. And you keep forgetting that there were alot of assassination attemps on hitler.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

well if it wasnt for WWII we wouldnt have microwave ovens and modern military equipment like the hummer AND THE JET FIGHTER!

so war is the best thing that happened to the US economy even though its pretty bad to say

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

i doubt it was only a handful of people in th eentire army whho thought it was wrong. if enough people had decided it was wrong and taken action, the war wouldn't have lasted six years...

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

Yes, you doubt, you don't know if it's the truth or not, I'm sure a good chunk hear rumors of what was going on, but are you really going to tell me, that on german radio and papers they were telling every soldier they were killing off every jew? Doubtful, the only people who knew what was really going on were the ones who were doing it, and are you telling me that the germans were so messy that they let that sort of information simply leak out?

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

no ofcourse not, this would call for a coup or assassination of the CiC. Ordering soldiers to commit brutal murders is wrong, very wrong (hell it would even go against the miliairy code). Obeying combat orientaed orders (even when you disagree with the reason to go to battle) is a must. Obeying orders to murder isn't. The heer (german army) followed the orders to start a war not to kill jews. These orders where given to the Waffen SS, these unfortunatly ordered heer divisions to assist them. The true soldiers refuses to commit outrate murder, some assisted because they where afraid of their own lifes and the rest where very happy to assist the waffen SS, exact percentages are impossible to tell but in general the Heer looked down upon the Waffen SS they where never considered a real army by the heer.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

it still doesn't change the fact that they participated, willingly or not, and for that they are guilty.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

I think the admiration of Rommel could be best compared to that of Robert E. Lee. (If any non-Americans are blanking, he was the commander of the Army of Northern Virginia for the Confederacy.) Both fought out of a feeling of duty and always conducted themselves honorably.

P.S. Rommel actually collaborated with the assassins when he discovered the concentration camps. They would not be known to a general busy conducting a war in Africa.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

Note that the Soviet Union, an ally to the United States and Great Britain, was also one of the aggressors of World War II. The USSR invaded numerous sovereign nations, including Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Poland. It's also speculated that, had Germany not invaded first, the Soviet Union would have eventually pushed farther into western Europe.

They were no better than Nazi Germany, invading countries for the same primary reason: territory. Your beloved Allies cooperated and supported the USSR, so they are no less guilty.


An isolated German-Polish war does not constitute "steam rolling across Europe."

In any event, the Allies didn't care about Poland. They sat idly by and let Germany and the Soviet Union dissect the country, and after the war they just let Poland disappear under the iron curtain.


Even the United States, of all countries, believed that the Treaty of Versailles was too harsh and refused to ratify it.


Now, perhaps, but place yourself in the shoes of the typical German conscript of WWII. You have no idea of the atrocities or other crimes. As far as you're concerned, you're fighting a just war for a united Europe.


You can thank the Germans for the jet fighter, the assault rifle, as well as the initial Soviet and American space programs, among other things.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

1. We aren't condoning Stalin's actions.
2. How much farther could he have pushed without the same thing happening to him that happened to Hitler?

1. We had to supprt the Soviets, to stop Hitler. "Enemy of my enemy who also happens to havr a massive army is my friend".
Austria, Czechoslovakia, the Rhineland, Poland. That is a pattern of imperialist aggression. Poland was not isolated. Hitler intended to create a massive empier in Europe, which could not be condoned.
1. We did, but the Soviets already occupied Poland. We couldn't well start a new "hot" war. Instead, we took Poland back through the Cold War.

It was too harsh, but that wasn't why the U.S. didn't ratify it. The U.S. didn't ratify the Treaty because of the League of Nations, which Congress opposed.

True. I think the Nuremburg defense is fair, even if it seems weak.
And 6 million dead Jews. Pros and Cons, bud.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

It had nothign to do with Hitler. Please actually read a history book before commenting. History Channel doesnt count.

The Allies seized control of the shipping lanes bringing supplies to Rommel and when the sea lanes were cut off the Germans and Italians tried flying over supplies and were slaughtered over the Med by Allied aircraft operating from North Africa and more importantly Malta.

In effect the Allies cut off Rommels supplies. IIRC Rommel needed 1000-1500 tons a month and was occasionaly getting 500 tons a month. Rommels failure at first Battle of El Alamein huinged on the safe arrival of a Italian freighter carrying 5,000gallons of fuel. The tanker made it into the harbor but was torpedoed and sunk at anchorage. Withouit fuel Rommel had to fall back and prepare defensive positions.

Rommels refusal of the SS in North Africa is mentioned in his memoirs.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

Did Rommel support the Nazi ideals and beliefs?

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

I know the Treaty was harsh, that's not what I was arguing about. Germany signed it and therefore it was legal, and so was Poland's land. That's all I'm saying.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

Perhaps. The Russians fought for their freedom, their nation, their families, for Stalin. Good reasons, no? Do these motives give them the right to go pillaging, raping, abusing and killing the native German population of the lands they seized?

I am well aware the germans did the same to the native Slavic populations, but still.

I was pissed because my grandma died.

(I know I've been a prick in general the last couple of weeks aswell. I blame puberty.)

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

I sure do hope you didn't spend hours writing all that, Grob. I didn't bother reading it: I have seen enough programs on the various History channels I get to last me a few more years. I'm sure it was good though!

This may have been featured in your lecture, but Rommel, although deemed a traitor by Hitler, was given a heroes burial. Letting the funeral happen was Hitlers last thankyou for his service.

Did you know: The plans for the funeral and who would speak and what would be sung etc. were started before Rommel was even dead. Thats just sad.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

Umm he was given a heroes burial because he was so loved by his men and a hero of the people of germany. Not because hitler thought it was the "right thing to do".

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

holy crap, thx Donitz!
Your awesome!!!

*prints pages*

Didn't Rommel wanted a war in the east? :rolleyes:
also, how exactly would it end in 1944?
Goering is second in command and im sure he too wanted to defeat the Soviet Union..

Not really.. I doubt many people in the heer or even the waffen-ss knew anything of the fates of the Jews or maybe they atleast thought that the Jews had fair treatements.
Eitherway, how exactly would they know?

Edit: Btw, does anyone know the number of "atrocities" done by the Soviet Union?
Was it like 30 million "innocent" people who died under Stalin's hand??
Just wondering..

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

He is my hero, may he reast in peace, and recieve his rightfull place among great men.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

Rommel wasn't great. he could have been great. choosing the winning side is a sign of greatness. being on the winning side is a prerequisite for greatness. Rommel wasn't great.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

Being great does not always mean winning in the end. Rommel was Great.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but not all Germans were Nazi's, and there are plenty of examples; Rommel, Dönitz, Hans von Luck, and countless other highranking people within the German Army, along with many regular soldiers.

Let's take Hans von Luck for example. In most respects, von Luck held many ideals similar to Rommel. This guy also had a jewish wife, and even negotiated with the Gestapo to get people out. It should be noted that he also had several cease-fires with the British.

Also, the allies weren't exactly all saints either. Perhaps some of you are unaware of the horrible massacres the Soviets did upon the Polish people. Also, after the war, Stalin needed someone to blame, because they had no clear enemy and, like the Nazi's, Stalin wished to blame the Jews. He also disallowed the practice of religion.


You people just don't seem to get it or don't know enough about Rommel to have a solid counter-argument.

Perhaps you should actually read Großadmiral Dönitz excellent post before you start throwing around old and very recycled arguments. This thread is about Rommel and all the good he represented, not Nazi's or the atrocities done upon the Jewish people.

The facts are simple. Not only was Rommel not a Nazi, but he defied Hitler with a passion. There were multiple times when Rommel clearly disobeyed Hitler's orders for the survival of the men under his command. He treated his men with utmost respect and actually cared for them. In the end, he took his own life, in order to protect the lives of his family and staff, because he became involved in the plot to kill Hitler.

Rommel strongly disagreed against Hitler and his Nazism and really wanted to negotiate with the Allies, for a collective effort in order to deal with the Soviets.

Theres the hard facts people, plain and simple. I shall consider this manner closed.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

In Rommel: The Desert Fox, placed together by the Rommel Papers and accounts of Rommel's loved ones, states Hitler utterly failed to even offer much of the equipment needed to win the war in Africa. Maybe I missed it, but I in no way recall the SS being mentioned as intended reinforcements.

IF they did wind up going to Africa, it would not have made much of a difference; he needed tanks, not murderers.

Sorry if it WAS in my source, but whatever. No harm done, right?

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

Many Soviet Generals were much greater than Rommel, they accomlished more with less. And they won the war. Most were held back by Stalin, but after victory at Stalingrad, they got more freedom in the military operations, and Soviets started winning all the battles

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

huh, i didnt mentioned that?
After the removal of hitler the militairy could take power (by force), order the militairy to lay down their arms and then start negosiations with the allies for peace. Rommel did want to get rid of hitler although he prefered a coup instead of a attack.

Re: Rommel - 1891-1944
 

The same can be said for rommel during his last year in Africa, 90% of his supply line was not getting to him, he was always running low on fuel, lack of fresh armor, Infact by time rommel left africa due to his injury, Rommel had more british and american panzers then he did of his own.

Although I do agree, There were very good generals on our side as well, but I never said they were not great or as great.

Timoshenko, Zhukov, Vasilievski, Koniev and Govorov, if it were not for the fact that Stalin killed off most of seasoned generals we would have been much better off during or atleast during the early half of the war.