God
 

A new religion thread. Might as well break it in, and get to the point.

Does God (or a 'Higher Being') exist? I know religious people will say, 'Read the Bible and shut up,' and atheists will say 'There is no God, you're stupid,' etc etc. But this can make it more interesting... Provide some evidence to back up your claims. :deal:

And also, if He does exist, where did He come from? I know, in the Bible, it says He is not tied to time, and therefore has no beginning (and, therefore, no end.) However, this goes against our deepest understanding of our world, that everything (and I mean everything) both has a beginning and an end. What could have created God (or a Higher Being)? Possibly some weird random energy something or other in the early universe? Or maybe another higher creator? I doubt any of those, but, hey, you never know... Thinking about this hurts my head. As to my first question, I say yes. Although I have no evidence apart from something I find it impossible to explain. Oh well.

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This is one of those things that you just can't prove either way. Try as you might...it's impossible. Our stupid little human minds can't even begin to fathom God, never mind understand all his ways, and trying to understand him having no beginning or end...lol, good luck. ;)


It's all faith. In the words of J.R.R. Tolkien "Faith - is daring the mind to go beyond what the eyes refuse to see."

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there are so many other threads where we have done this....

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I think God didn't come from anywhere he was just there. In the beginning, I think this may be because I am a Christian

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You are welcome not to post in here if you like. :)

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When you die you will know wich Religion is true or that just when you are dead you are dead.

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He created time, He is not bound by time, therefore He has always been and always shall be there. I agree with Sporky, God is way too complicated for our little minds to comprehend. I don't know why He created us, I'm just grateful that He did!

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Although, of course, if you were dead, you'd be dead, and wouldn't really know everything.

That reminds me of the South Park with the devil, where everyone in hell is grouped around, and the introduction guy was like "And the correct religion is... Mormon! Yes, Mormon. Thanks for playing..."

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In my opinion God (and a Godess for that matter) does exist.

This can be seen in the sheer complexity of everything around us. Try as we might we have not developed any nanotechnology on as small a scale as the technology contained within every living thing.

Anyone who says science has proved the Deities do not exist is in my opinion wrong. The Deities and science are not mutually exclusive, the Deities work THROUGH science, they provided the unique conditions in which life could happen, the big bang could happen, evolution could happen. The deities are more subtle than to come down in a flash of light and make the world etc.

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God does not exist. I do not need scientific proof to prove my point at all. God and religion were created to answer the unknowns of the world. Many ancient societies had polytheistic anthropomorphic deities for every single facet of human life. There would be a 'god of thunder', a 'god of agriculture', etc. Each of which would be blamed whenever something bad happened, which would then reflect upon the society as immature in that it cannot realise its own faults. Monotheism placed the blamed more on people, but still with a god who punished those who he deemed unfit. God is still looked upon to explain the many mysteries of the univers, including its creation. We can discuss creationalism and evolutionalism sometime else, but its still important here. I have no need for religion or god, it is all simply a fictious character to the mind to answer one's problems. I have questions, but look not to 'god' for answer, I try to answer the question myself. That is somewhat the meaning of life, to ask questions, not finding the answers. In conclusion, there is no god, but thats my opinion and you're welcome to think otherwise.

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How can you simply state that the Deities were created to prove the unknowns in the world. Deities (oh it was the religions that were poltheistic not the Deities themselves) were not created merely to blame something on. People have believed in Deities because looking around themselves they can see the beauty of the world and want to celebrate it, and they believe that something so beautiful cannot be created by anything other than a designer. Well that is why I believe in Deities. There are actually many reasons why people might.

1. Personal Revelation-a person experiences something (e.g. a miracle) that makes them believe in God.

2. Upbringing-they were brought up being told that God exists.

3. Millions of other people believe in religion, so there must be truth in it.

4. Holy texts- must be some truth behind them (i don't believe there is).

5. Design theory (e.g. Paley's watch, newton's thumb)- World is so intricate must have been designer.

6. First cause/cosmological argument- trace events all the way back, what was before anything else--->Deity.

Sorry for the crap wording for that first paragraph, I might rewrite it later....

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You guys are knuckleheads! God exists! Think about it people!


Where do you think the endless universe came from? Sheer coincidence? I DON'T THINK SO! What about suns that placed where our sun is they would reach to Saturn? Sheer coincidence? I don't think so!

How about the thousands upon thousands of species that live on the earth? Coincidence? NO!

"In the beggining GOD created the heavens and the Earth."

Genesis 1:6-8: 6*And God went on to say: “Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.” 7*Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And it came to be so. 8*And God began to call the expanse Heaven. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a second day.


GOD EXISTS! THERE YOU HAVE PROOF PEOPLE!

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Is anyone here a Jehovah's Witness besides me?

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If God was all super-powered, smart, magical, and peaceful... he would have done no better than to invent the humans?

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That is a good point montana.

However humans do perform good actions, however while the deities did intend for humans to evolve, I don't belive they were directly created by the deities. I think the disgraceful actions of killing and harming the planet humans have comitted is all our own doing. And it is up to us to try and put it right *cough* kyoto agreement *cough* would be a good start.

Please can we avoid, there you have it proof type statements. Because that is just stupid isnt it, because if there was proof we wouldnt be having this argument would we? Every person has the right to believe what ever they want, we are arguing our point of view not trying to convert.

Any other Wiccans/pagans out there?

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the thing is that God gave us free will acording to my faith. you'll have to read the first few chapters of the Bible for the other details.



same. it is just impossible for us to understand that he is just there.

and what Christian branch are you from any way? (just asking)

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I don't know.

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You people! Go back to the Garden of Eden. There, Satan tricked Eve into eating the fruit.

Genesis 3:1-13

Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?” 2*At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3*But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’” 4*At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5*For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”

6*Consequently the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something to be longed for to the eyes, yes, the tree was desirable to look upon. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward she gave some also to her husband when with her and he began eating it. 7*Then the eyes of both of them became opened and they began to realize that they were naked. Hence they sewed fig leaves together and made loin coverings for themselves.

8*Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife went into hiding from the face of Jehovah God in between the trees of the garden. 9*And Jehovah God kept calling to the man and saying to him: “Where are you?” 10*Finally he said: “Your voice I heard in the garden, but I was afraid because I was naked and so I hid myself.” 11*At that he said: “Who told you that you were naked? From the tree from which I commanded you not to eat have you eaten?” 12*And the man went on to say: “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate.” 13*With that Jehovah God said to the woman: “What is this you have done?” To this the woman replied: “The serpent—it deceived me and so I ate.”


Romans 5:12
That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned



Because Adam & Eve ate from that tree, sin has been passed down through him and given to us. Humans are imperfect, but thats all going to change soon. God will destroy this system of things, and make way for a new one. A peaceful one. No wars, no violence, no hate, no theft, no murder, no sickness, no pain, no death, no hospitals, no police stations, no starvation, nothing like that! Wouldn't you like to live in a world like that?

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Mock me if you wish, but mark my words it will happen! And when it does, every single one of you will think back to this and say:

"I wish I would have listened!"

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I would like to add that in my opinion there is no true religion, all religions are a path to the deities, a way to lead a good life, and a way to learn a lesson from this life.If you don't believe in Deities, I still think you make contact with them by simply living a good life.

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At the cost of all non-Jehovah's Witness being murdered by God? No.

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Not murdered! God isn't like that! He wouldn't murder his creations! Life is precious to Jehovah. WE are precious to him! He will just do away with them. Not murder, just do away with!


Hey jihuugegi, where do you live? You can go to the placed called Kingdom Hall of Jehovahs Witnesses where you live.

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*cough*euphemism*cough* do away with, murder, not much difference really in the context we are talking about.

no religion is better than any other they are all just different paths and as such are suited to different people. I wish people would stop trying to convert other people. Religion is specific to each person and as such they should be left alone to choose their religion.

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Please excuse my poor English, but what to you mean by that? They'll be send to a different place than JW's?

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By do away with he just means smashed to bits.

CAN PEOPLE PLEASE STOP BEING SO SELF RIGHTEOUSS AND ACCEPT OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS!!!!stop telling me I will regret this day, I don't apprieciate being told what my beliefs should be.

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Hero: Please try and be objective, you cannot prove that what you think is true. You may strongly believe what you do, but please try and be and less condeming of others beliefs.


I have a question...what exactly do JW's believe?

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I won't divulge anymore info. Look into it yourself.

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Aw come on...just a brief summary? :D

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No.

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Well I will always think that is why religion was created, to answer unknown problems. People needed to blame someone for their bad crops, why not a deity? I was raised Catholic for a good part of my life. I'm an atheist now, I'm done with all that religious nonsense. In my opinion, you're damned if you do and you're damned uf you dont.

As for millions of people believeing in religion, so there must be some truth in it. I'm reminded of 1930-1940s Nazi Germany, millions of white 'aryan' people thought they were better than everyone else. Were they right? No. In the words of Vladimir Lenin: "A lie told often enough becomes the truth".

Some holy texts do have som truth behind them, in the form of historical events. As in the Bible and the siege of Jerusalem by the Assyrians. The Bible, to me, is a fictional story about common sense.

As for design theories and such, the world is all just a coincidence. We all evolved, in some way or another from single-cell organisms billions of years ago when the earth was cooling. I do not, nor will not believe the earth and its species have some sort of 'designer'. The world is too intricate and detailed to have a designer.

This is my opinion, I'm not forcing you to accept as your own. You may think in other ways that I do not, but they will not change my stance on religion and all its facets.

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Lol, so this is your proof?

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It says clearly: GOD created the heavens and the Earth.

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The Koran clearly says that Allah created the heavens and Earth. Your point?

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Well, God and Allah are the same diety. Just different names. And I can't believe you take a book that is only half fact and half fiction for whole truth.

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To the Christians Allah is not the same as JHWH, though there aren't many differences. In fact, they only differ in one major thing: in the Koran, Jesus is a prophet, not the saviour/messias.

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yep, that's correct. :nodding:


And Hero Of Time: It's like this, the bible is proof to you, to other people who aren't christians (or jehovah witnesses) the bible will only be a really old book. So you really can't take the Bible and say, "look here's proof that God created the Universe(sp?????)." (it would be really kewl if I could spell...)

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But you wouldn't blame a deity. You could ask them for help, but you wouldn't blame them. The deity did not deliberately harm the crops.

Never said I thought millions of people believing in religion was a good reason, but there are people who believe in religion for this reason.

My religion doesn't involve any holy texts so I'll ignore the holy texts rebuttal.

I believe that it takes more faith to believe thatt the intricacies of the earth were created by a designer.

Was it coincidence that plants evolved at all (thereby changing our atmosphere into something inhabitable)? I find that hard to believe, along with the 'coincidence' of the big bang theory, the system of evolution, the fact that life functions efficiently etc.

Those reasons for religion were not my views, but truth, those ARE the reasons why people believe in religion. I don't agree with some of them (e.g. loads of other people, upbringing)

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religion is the easy way out.

"I don't understand how this and this and this happend."
believing a magical deity from above snapped his fingers and *poof* there was life, is much easier to understand than evolution and most big bang theories...

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And takes less faith. :nodding:

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as I said, it's the easy way out.

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This thread is meaningless, there is no definite proof for god's existince, but no definite antithesis. While I believe in a God, I can show an atheist a bible, but he can also say it isn't true. Maybe if you stopped preaching YOUR gospel for a second, you'd realize that it's a much better agreement to, instead of bickering, work together, find out how both theories can be together, and still stand true.

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i feel that no matter their view on god they are all way right
for an example you may h8 the idea of god but other like the idea of god , in my mind god exist in the minds of those who belive,, so if you don't belive in god then he doesn't exist to you but if you do belive in god then he does exist to you there shoudl not be debates about weather or not he exist because it is up to you if he does not any1 else .

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Exactly, like I said in the beginning of the thread. It's all a matter of faith. :nodding:

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thanks no matter wot you say you all have a faith , a faith in god or a faith in not belive in god

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But I believe the deities work through the laws of science. They created the earth by setting up the conditions for the big bang. They created life by setting up the conditions for life to start. They helped living things evolve by putting in natural selection into the way of the world.

Galeforce, It's just fun to discuss and debate beliefs with other people. We're not bickering, just debating, listening to other people's point of views, and often you can learn a lot about religion by simply talking about it with others.

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What's ur religion again?:P just curious. Not gotta judge u by it but wud love to know.

Galeforce is right, there was bickering. It's fun to debate and argue, but when there's name callin and narrow-minded-ness it's no fun anymore. But it's not as simple as just melding all the theories. All in all.. i think it's fairly important to listen to ur heart, and not what things tell you (like holy texts and other people) No matter what ur upbringing or have been taught, God is there, and He will reach out to you if u'd just listen to Him. At least this is what i've felt.

Intricate design.. is one of the major reasons i believe in a God. Or a Creator at least.

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There is no proof of a diety "God" as most will argue for or against. I believe that "god" is the whole, however big or endless that may be.

On fact that no one can argue with is that there are undocumented laws to this universe, such is the progress of science. Laws that apply to physics and keys to unlocking the powers of the universe. A grand design, an order...now how was this set into place?

Then there are our own laws to preservation of life which make up civil law. These were not made up by man, only a realization of how a society works. Every animal or living being are held to these boundaries of existance.

As for the unexplained elements, dreams(clairvoyance), intuition, and other unexplained natural instincts we posess....I don't know.

As for "God" I humble my insignificant self to the awesome might and vastness of the universe. And as a living being I am significant in that itself.

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I skimmed through this thread and have to say, whether or not there is a god doesn't matter to me. The bible is just writing, it doesn't prove anything. But atheists don't believe there is anything. The thing is none of this can be proven and probably will never be proven. BTW, not all atheists will tell you, colonel bob, that your stupid. I'm not atheist, I'm not religious, I'm neither. Because of where I live I have to say that I'm catholic, even though I don't support religion. I'm spirtual, if you will, because I would be beaten to death or shot, because I live in a town full of fat, conservative, evangelistic, rednecks.

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I found this at debatabase.org, and it jived with this thread...so here it is. http://gamingforums.com/images/smilies/smilie.gif

Context (Written by Joe Devanny (England))

The big question. The ultimate metaphysical debate. It has occupied the world’s best minds for centuries. Can we know that God exists? How can you prove it? Many proofs have been offered by believers of many different religions. Offered here are arguments generated from within the JudaeoChristian and Islamic traditions.



If you saw a watch lying on the sand you would think that there must have been someone who made the watch – a watchmaker. Similarly, we as human beings are so complicated and amazing that we must jump to the conclusion that we had a conscious maker.


Rational thought and deliberation are the purposes of human life. We are alone in that respect and it is an amazing fact that we are here at all. The world would only have to be infinitesimally different for no life to have evolved at all. Getting something so amazing, on such long odds, smacks of intention. Like a poker player dealing himself 100 winning hands on the trot.


God must be perfect if he exists. But a thing which exists is more perfect than a thing which doesn’t exist. But nothing can be more perfect than God. So God must exist.


Everything in the universe has a cause. It is inconceivable that time is one, long beginningless chain of cause and effect, but it must be because we cannot conceive of something happening uncaused. Therefore, God exists as the uncaused first cause.


You cannot infer from the fact that the world was created that God was the creator. The conception of God contains many extra attributes that aren’t necessary of a world creator. Second, just because the world is beautiful and varied doesn’t mean it was consciously designed. Why can’t beauty happen by accident?


The difference between a watch and us is that the watch serves a purpose – to tell the time. Therefore, seeing something so perfectly serving a purpose suggests design. What purpose do we serve? We don’t, we just exist. And even if we were designed for a purpose, the earlier argument applies: a purposeful designer isn’t necessarily a God.


The argument from probability does not work. It relies on there being something special about us. What is so special about us? We are rational – so what? The poker analogy is only remarkable from within the context of the rules of the game. What are the rules of our game?


This ontological argument can be rebutted by rejecting the idea that existence is a perfection. Something either exists or it doesn’t. It mightn’t be as useful to you if it doesn’t exist but that is hardly the same thing. And more importantly, the argument is a disguised conditional; you say ‘if God exists then he must be perfect, and if he must be perfect he must therefore exist.’ But all this rests on the initial ‘if God exists.’ If God doesn’t exist, we don’t have the problem and the argument doesn’t work.


The cosmological argument doesn’t work. For a start, an uncaused first cause still doesn’t necessarily have all the attributes it would need to be called God – e.g. omnipotence, benevolence and omniscience. More importantly, an uncaused first cause is just as incomprehensible to us as an endless chain of cause and effect. You are just shifting the incomprehension one stage back.

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Easy explanation. Let's say you don't beleive in god. You spend your life not beleiving in god, thinking everyone is wrong but you. Let's say you do believe in god. You spend you life believing in god and ppl that dont believe in him are wrong. The person that doesn't believe in God dies, adn there was a god, he goes to hell or purgatory...whatever. Let's say God didn't exist, he was right...way to go...your still dead. The man that Did believe in God dies. There was a God and he goes to heaven, yay. Lets say God didn't exist, he is in the same position as the guy who didn't believe in god...darn you were wrong...your still dead and dont give a shit.

My point is, what does it hurt to believe in God, might as well look forward to dying and thinking it is a new life rather than thinking its all you have right now.