Axis victory

[Destroyer25]

I have here drawn up the plan that should have been used to take Europe. The 1st thing that Hitler (Rundstedt actually, but Hitler agreed with him) did wrong was this. They halted their offensive against the allies in the Dunkirk Pocket. Now their reasoning behind this was justifiable but many German generals thought it was foolish. The Panzer Divisions were exhausted, and definitely couldn't sustain much more fighting, also these Panzers would be necessary in the fight against the remaining French forces to the south. Also the area around Calais was not very suitable for Panzers. However this clearly was a bad decision, had Britain lost all of these men then she would be unable to continue the war. The BEF was retreating when this bad decision was made, so had the Germans decided to attack the BEF would be caught with their pants down. The loss of this 300 000 men would be a deadly blow. Now comes the important part.

Screw the Battle of Britain. Spits>ME109s. Germany isn't going to beat the RAF. So this is what must happen, Germany will immediately redeploy her forces for an assault in the Balkans, and General Rommel must be sent to North Africa with much haste, also he must have 3 Divisions, not 2. He will have the 15th Panzer, the 5th Light(Later re designated 21st Panzer) and the 7th Panzer(Which he commanded in France) divisions. These troops must be ready for action by March 31st. Now the Balkans, the execution of the Blitzkrieg against the Balkans was perfect, nothing need be changed. With no Battle of Britain the Luftwaffe will be able to put more planes into the skies, and they will be able to increase Rommel's air support too,(A VERY KEY FACTOR! THE LOSS OF THE X AIR CORPS WAS DEVASTATING! IT ALLOWED THE BRITISH TO CONTROL THE MEDITERRANEAN). Now with the loss of troops at Dunkirk Britain will be unable to reinforce Africa. This means Rommel will swiftly take Egypt. Now we come to Operation Barbarossa

It was executed well but there was no foresight. With the rapid capture of the Balkans the Germans are before schedule, they should be ready to invade Russia in early May. Simply because they weren't sitting in France waiting for the Luftwaffe to beat the RAF. Germany need only be prepared with anti freeze, white paint and winter clothes. An attack in early May would prove more effective as Russia would be even less prepared. The primary objectives are Leningrad and Moscow. Linking up with the Fins and the capture of Murmansk are crucial, I realize that latter will be incredibly difficult but it cam be achieved. I expect Leningrad to be captured by the mid of August, and Moscow should at the very least be only 50 km away. After Leningrad falls then 75% of AGN's armor should be redeployed to Moscow. I would now hold the armor back, and wait 2 weeks maximum for refitting, resupplying and for reinforcing infantry to get into position. On Sept 1st the offensive must be resumed at full pace.

Meanwhile in Africa, Rommel should have Suez, and the Italians should be holdings Sinai while the mechanized forces refit. Rommel should be attacking Palestine, Trans-Jordan, Lebanon and Syria in August. The Italians cam be sent to occupy Iraq, and the oil fields, but they will not touch the Saudis. Rommel's 3(or 4 depending if hes gotten reinforcements to form the 90th light) German divisions should be moving north. I very much hope that with Turkey surrounded they will join the Axis. They were already supplying the Germans with chrome for their planes, so with Turkey axis, getting supplies to Rommel and oil from Iraq to Germany would be easy. The Turkish army could help occupy the desert and could help support Rommel's advance into the Caucuses. Baku is the target, as this is where the Soviet oil is. With Moscow hopefully dealt with by late September, the drive on Stalingrad can begin.

This is very important. With Rommel in Georgia, the Russians will be fighting several fronts. Once Rostov is captured then the Russians can no longer fight Rommel, as their rear will be threatened. This will force a Soviet withdraw to Stalingrad. With Rommel in the South, and Paulus(who will be replaced by Manstein) in the west. Stalingrad is doomed. Rommel will attempt a crossing of the Volga, south of Stalingrad, Rommel is highly experienced in this, so it should be no trouble. Rommel will then attack the city from behind, while Manstein attacks head on. The city can simply be starved out with the the supply line cut. With the loss of Stalingrad the Russians are doomed.

I would now order a general hault all along the front. The Soviets are in no place to counter attack with all their large cities captured. Their commanders will have to operate out of a city to the east of Moscow. The Germans need only hold the line until the Spring, when an offensive to the Urals can be launched. Hopefully Japan can be persuaded to not attack the US but instead focus on China, India, and possibly Russia. Without the US the allies are doomed. Russia should be out of the war by the fall of 1942. Now Germany can redeploy back to France. Look at the map I posted, everything insiude of the Red should be under German control. Now England need only be taken. And then Europe is German.

Ty for reading this entire thing if you did , I know its a lot. But its a long plan. But it could work, me an my friends plan on wargaming it. So if Hitler really wanted to rule Europe, then he should have used this strategy.

[MrFancypants]

The best thing might have been never to start the war in the first place. There was no way to defeat the Soviet Union without first declaring war on the Allies and there was no way to defeat the Allies in time before the Soviet Union could have prepared defences or attacked on their own. And fighting both at the same time would always be very risky, even with a perfect plan.

[Destroyer25]

Originally Posted by MrFancypants

The best thing might have been never to start the war in the first place. There was no way to defeat the Soviet Union without first declaring war on the Allies and there was no way to defeat the Allies in time before the Soviet Union could have prepared defences or attacked on their own. And fighting both at the same time would always be very risky, even with a perfect plan.

Germany didn't have to fight the allies and the Soviets, had the Soviets taken Poland alone, Britain and France might have supported Germany in fighting the USSR. But that's not the point, the point is with my strategy Germany wouldn't have to fight 2 fronts. The allies landed in Normandy in 1944, and had been fighting in Italy since 1943(that's just because Rommel was defeated) but with my plan Germany will defeat the British in Africa like that, and if Germany could pound some sense into Japan then the US wouldn't have entered the war. Russia would be gone in late 42 and Britain would be in German hands by the summer of 43. The next step would be to attempt to link up with Japan via Asia. Germany could occupy Iran and possibly form peace with the Saudis, who are motivated by $. Germany could even tell the Saudis that they could rule the Arab world in exchange for resources, and that they would be given military support. This move would keep a Jihad from happening and would free up troops for operations elsewhere. Italy would probably expand their empire into Africa. Which would be very possible with some hardware aid from Germany, some better generals, and better troop training.

[Afterburner]

Japan was inevitably going to attack Pearl Harbor, and the Germans wouldn't have been able to convince them otherwise. Not to mention Both Churchill and FDR wanted the U.S. to come into the war, and so it was inevitable that they would have. So long as the U.S. came into the war at the time it did Europe would have fallen. Barbarossa was started far too late to be successful, and in reality I don't think Germany ever had a chance in hell of occupying all of Russia (not that that was their goal.) And so long as Russia was not occupied they would have been capable of a counter-offensive using their vetern Siberan troops, while the U.S. and Great Britain were hounding them from the other side.

Even forgetting all of that the German Empire would have inevitably collapsed from the balls out massive guerrilla war they would have had to fight in Russia. Tens of millions of people all fighting a guerrilla war in one of the harshest and most unforgiving landscapes on the planet? Yeah, Germany would have lost.

And to be honest Germany wouldn't have been able to handle the Soviet Union and Britain even if the U.S. hadn't joined in force. Basically, Germany lost the war they minute they marched across Poland.

[Anlushac11]

When Germany invaded Russia the Germans captured literally thousands of Russian vehicles and trucks which the Germans felt were inferior to their own and thus dropped these vehicles into large vehicle parks largely unused.

Had the Gerrmans pressed these vehicles into service for transporting supplies and equipment and given the troops proper winter gear instead of counting on the invasion being over before witner hit things might have been different.

Post war records showed Stalin intended to make a Stand in Moscow so it would have come down to a winner take all fight. Moscow also controlled the main rail junction for rail lines going north to Leningrad and South to Stalingrad.

Had Germany taken Moscow or even gotten a secure foothold and cut off the rail lines north, south, and east (where supplies from USA and the Ural factories were coming from) then the Eastern front war might have ended alot differently.

If Germany had prepared properly they would have been in a better position to hold their positions over the winter and been in a better position to renew their spring offensive.

IMHO the Soviet troops rushed west from Manchuria would have brought the situation to a stalemate which Germany would have still lost in the long run. Germany simply did not have the manpower and production capacity to wage a war of attrition with the Soviet Union, Especially with the US providing material support.

It is said that Kursk broke the Heer's back. The Kuban Pocket broke the Luftwaffe's back.

[Nemmerle]

You know what strikes me about the liberation photos of Europe? So much manpower just sitting around living civilian lives; and it was the same in many other areas too. World War 2 was a gentleman's war in that it wasn't fought using the much nastier tactics Europeans had been using the world over for the past few hundred years. If you're going to go to war with a country you go to war to gain control of its people and resources, or to deny them to the enemy - and if you're just going to do the latter scorched earth works quite well. Old generals understood that fact, the Russians certainly did and they had plenty to spare; hence their Zerg rush tactics.

Taking land is only useful when you can utilise the people on it in your own armies, either as support staff or soldiers, otherwise whenever you take land you weaken yourself and extend the border you have to protect. It's one of the reasons why encirclement worked so well in Russia; huge area with few key points and armies - you just went around the other people to get to your target. Conquering in Europe and then letting all that production potential go to waste was stupid, so was going after cities rather than resource centres in Russia - you were never going to benefit from those fights even if you won. Most of Russia you were pretty much going to have to burn; gas the cities, salt the earth and fire the forests and then move on ‘till you get to the resources. You couldn’t leave an open flank there but at the same time there was never really anything you could do with it.

[Anlushac11]

Alot is said of how many Western Soviet citizens saw the Germans as liberators only to have the Germans start trying to exterminate them.

[Crazy Wolf]

Originally Posted by Anlushac11

Alot is said of how many Western Soviet citizens saw the Germans as liberators only to have the Germans start trying to exterminate them.

I think at least one estimate suggests that if Hitler had taken the Ukranians and used them against the Russians, then he might've been able to win.

See why we don't exterminate people, kids? Then we can't use them for our own means!

[Nemmerle]

You know how ungrateful people are for being liberated; sure they'll cheer for you when you drive through but a week later they're back to the same kind of lives they were before they were liberated. When it comes to putting their nose to the grind stone and chipping in they're remarkably absent.

[Destroyer25]

Many of the peoples in the Baltic states did fight with Germany though, all the Estonians joined the Fins. Another thing Germany needed to change was that they had able bodied men in factories. Had these troops been at the front then It might have had an impact, not mention that at least 10-15 divisions that were in the west could have been fighting in Russia, especially if Germany had used my plan. Plus with the men freed up from factory work Germany could probably field at least another 15 divisions, maybe more. 25-30 extra divisions on the east front is a huge difference, especially if they weren't distributed piecemeal but instead massed in reserve to be thrown into the fight at any point. 25-30 divisions is a lot. That's what, maybe 300 000-400 000 men? Imagine being able to suddenly have that many extra men at the gates of Moscow. Surely Germany would win, also had Germany been less cruel to the Citizens of Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltics they could have turned them against the Russians. They wouldn't need to have as many troops partisan hunting.