Who has the best APC/IFV?
 

We have done tanks and aircraft best of, but I dont think we have ever done a "Best of APC" discussion. And well..Im at work and bored. :)

Ok here are the contenders.

M2A3/M3A3 BFV (Bradley Fighting Vehicle)

USMC AAVP7A1

British FV 510 Warrior

German Marder 1A3

USA/USMC/Canadian/Swiss Stryker/LAV-25/Coyote-Grizzly/MOWAG Pirahna

Russian BTR-90

Russian BMP-3

Chinese ZBD97

My vote is for the BMP-3

It is fairly well armored, low profile, has a 100mm low pressure gun, good for fire support roles and has a ATGM for anti-tank.

My primary requirement is amphibious, decent armor, can do fire support well, and can engage tanks if it has to, not that it would want to.

Well, I don't really know so much about APCs, but I think Germany is replacing the Marder with a new APC, the Puma. This new Puma is apparently rather large and difficult to airlift (you need one plane to transport the vehicle and another to transport additional modular armor).

Does the BMP-3 still hold extra fuel in the rear doors like the BMP-2 did? If so, you won't get me anywhere near it.


The best APC in my opinion is the Merkava, well it is kinda an APC. :p But of the choices, probably the BTR-90. It's fairly well armoured, pretty fast, eight wheel drive, holds as many men as the BMP-3, longer operational distance and is now being fitted with the same 100mm gun.

Gonna have to side with the BMP3. Has an autocannon for support, plenty of HE capability and has excellent agility because of its tracks. Turn radius on wheeled platforms is sometimes not ideal like in urban environments.

I voted for the BMP-3, but I since I know little to nothing about IFVs I just might have chosen the CV90 if it was on the list.
For a wheeled vehicle the Patria AMV ought to be good enough (even though I irrationally prefer the old Pasi), them crazy Poles, Croatians, Slovenians and South Africans bought it. :D

US M3 Bradley CFV, but I'm probably a little biased... To say the least.

The 25mm Sabot rounds are enough to kill a T-55 at the proper range, TOW-IIs rip up armor like it's wet paper. Not only that, but the electronics carried by this little ditty sure as hell outclass whatever the BMP-3 has.

Though, in truth, the M3 CFV is a scouting vehicle, and not an APC (it only carries a two man scout team) or IFV.

Anlushac, I fail to see why armor is all that important in an APC. Fact of the matter is, if a tank-caliber cannon hits any APC, it is going to die. No matter what type of shell is being fired. What is most crucial in an APC is it's ability to remain unseen, as well as move at the pace of the tanks it will be fighting alongside as part of a mechanized battle.

Armor is important because next to the AK47, the RPG7 in its various warheads is as ubiquitous on the battlefield as blood and sweat. Any vehicle not able to withstand repeated strikes from light AT weapons is a bad vehicle to ride into battle. The Bradley, for all its vaunted abilities was still able to be knocked out by this cheap widely available threat. So they started putting cages around them, good idea, just beats up on the poor things transmission because of the added weight.

The Bradley defends against weapons like this this with ERA. Mine was equipped with quite a bit of ERA. Saved my ass twice too.

Here's an M2 with ERA:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...M2_Bradley.jpg

However, I will give you this much. The aluminum structure of the Bradley does pretty much dissolve in the face of HEAT warheads.

Besides, I'll be damned if a BMP-3 simply shakes off a Javelin, or even AT4, hit.

You'd be surprised. Modern ERA has been proven to defeat DU rod style projectiles Such as the Abrams 120mm M829. This is protection for weapons that penetrate up to 550mm of RHA. At best, an AT4 can do about 420mm and thats with explosive, not concussive force so shooting at a target that is rolling around in ERA is very spotty with the AT4. The Javelin, being a dedicated MBT killer with top attack abilities of course does not suffer this penalty. Two different classes of weapons entirely.

It has been proven to defeat M829, but not M829A2 or A3. Both of those are resistant to this anti-sabot ERA that you're speaking of.

As I was saying, I'll be damned if a BMP-3 shakes off a Javelin or AT-4 hit.

I'd like to point out that, though I appreciate your input, this isn't exactly a field of discussion that I need lectures in. The crossed sabers in my avatar are there for a reason.

I like the German transport except it has a little wimpy gun on it. The badly is good, it has speed and weapons but lacks armor. Overall I think the BMP is best since its the strongest and it has a high caliber gun on it.

Apparently you do if you think an AT4 has the ability to penetrate modern ERA. The fact that the Javelin, a missile designed for no other purpose than killing heavy tanks, is somehow equal to a one shot disposable rocket whose parameters included targets ranging from light vehicles to light fortifications is evidence enough. 2nd generation ERA has baseline abilities to repel any shape charge warhead with less than 600mm of penetration. anti armor AT4 rounds have about 450mm of practical armor penetration. In other words, the AT4 is now the modern equivilent to the LAW. Good enough for most jobs, but not enough for all of them.

Theres not an armored vehicle in production that can shake off a Javelin strike but if they still make armored vehicles that an AT4 can slag, it probably has 'made in Mexico' stamped somewhere on it.

The BMP has a better silhouette, a better armament package, better cross country performance, carries more troops, is more mobile and has a more powerful engine. The armor differences are negligible as anything powerful enough to kill a BMP-3 is equally powerful enough to kill a Bradley. The difference lying in that when a BMP gets hit, its lack of aluminum means the crew wont die from poisonous smoke inhalation.

Just out of curiosity, would an APILAS be able to penetrate a tank equipped with modern ERA? Those things are supposedly capable of penetrating 720 mm RHA, and they are the heaviest AT-weapons available at company level (although technically the mines are a tad heavier), so it'd be interesting to know if they too are merely a psychological weapon...

Tanks/APC's have a new fear on the battlefield instead of Javelins, AT4s RPG's, etc they have to watch out for Spike Missiles now. They are so badass the missile is launched at a a somewhat high angle, it flys up and then doves down right on top on an enemy tank. The reason why this is so dangerous is because their tops of tanks usually aren't armored as heavy as the sides!

Isn't that quite similar how to the Javelin works? Unfortunately our military has a puny 100 of those Eurospike launchers for AT purposes (the navy has a couple of dozen more), that plus an amount of TOW2s is nowhere near enough to take care of all enemy armour.

IMHO it is unthinkable to have recon/scout vehicles that are not amphibious without preperation.

If you meet up with a superior enemy force and have to turn and escape Im not sure the enemy will be accomodating while you ahve to spend 20 minutes erecting floatation gear to get across a lake or river.

Considering that the speed of an amphibious PC is only a few miles per hour, I'd say you're a sitting duck in the water or out of it. The point of being able to cross those rivers isn't to escape, it is to allow you to get into position.

Hell, if you're spotted, then you're already doing something way wrong. Cav scouts will scope out a position much like a sniper doing a recon would. Shooting is your last resort. Remaining hidden is your primary objective. That, and before you are in position you already have an exfil route planned. Rivers are obviously avoided.


And I'm guessing you just selectively misread my post then? Or did you not pick up on how when I said "even an AT4" means that I think much less of the AT4's abilities than I do the Javelin's.

The BMP-3 is a better APC than the M2A2, I'm sure. Hell, maybe the A3. But what I know is the M3A3, and, with my training and experience with the CFV, gladly engage a BMP-3 if the situation demands it.

Do not discount the fact that the US Army is a professional force, well trained and very well equipped. I have no doubt in my mind that an American Bradley crew would outperform a Russian BMP crew.

I was referring to the vehicle abilities themselves. Im sure everyone here agrees that the vehicle is only as good as the crew that mans it.

I understand your argument but I still support amphibious scout/recon vehicles. IMHO 20 minutes to make amphibious is too much time.

Amphibious capabilities is a nice feature to have, but once you enter water you are a sitting duck. In the case of a BMP-1 or -3, I'm sure they can't even fire the cannon in water due to the recoil effects.

The BMP-1 should have no trouble firing while in water, the 73mm 2A28 is a low-pressure gun and fires the same ammunition as the 73mm SPG-9 Recoiless Rifle.

As for the BMP-3 i expect that it can fire it's main gun while in water.

I dont expect amphibious vehicles to go charging toward the shore with guns blazing in the face of enemy fire although thats what the USMC is trained to do.

From what I have read almost all of the most current and next gen amphibious APC's/IFV's can fire while in the water and most have stabilized guns allowing them to do it accurately.

The new Chinese IFV is comparable in peformance to the new USMC Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle and currently carries same turret as the BMP-3 and it can fire its 100mm low pressure gun while in the water and moving.

I out and out refuse to let this thread die in such a way. Therefore, I'm posting a few sexy videos full of armor porn.

M3A3 in Iraq


CV90-40


BMP-3


If not for the lack of an ATGM system, I'd give the award to the CV90. The ability to defeat MBTs is a huge part of being able to support your infantry squad. I still give the top slot to the M2A3/M3A3.

Re: Who has the best APC/IFV?
 

bmp-3 is one of the best. they have a nbc(nucleur-biologicel-chemical) protection layer on it(like many other apc) and they are also amphibius

Re: Who has the best APC/IFV?
 

Also consider the next gen Amphib APC's like China's ZBD2000 and USMC EFV can do over 25 knots or more in the water.

Re: Who has the best APC/IFV?
 

Virtually every modern armored fighting vehicle has NBC protection, as well as almost every aircraft.

Nuclear, Biological, Chemical. Just for future information, not trying to be rude.

Re: Who has the best APC/IFV?
 

BMD-3 is also a good apc