Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

What do you guys think of as the best service aircraft? That is any aircraft that is currently in the aresenal of any country. The only rule is that it has to be in service NOW. So you can't say "The P-51 in it's time." or something like that.

I personally find it an obvious answer but I wonder if any others do or if they have some other insight and ideas. I think the F/A-22 wins hand down. A combination of supercruise, stealth, thrust vectoring, and technoglical superiority gives it a tremendous advantge. Of course if you put an idiot in an F-22 and the best pilot int he world into a Mig-15 the Mig will probaly win but the F-22 evens things up tremendously and even makes it possible for a mediocre pilots to down a moderatly better pilot flying an inferior machine. There was one mock dogfight where the F-22 acheived a 144 to zero kill ratio against a bunch of U.S. aircraft(F-16, F/A-18, etc.) simulating Migs.

I have to give a nod to the Typhoon though. Consider how much cheaper it is then the F/A-22 it is still a really, really good aircraft and can no doubt be deadly in the right hands.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

I'm thinking the Raptor. After that, stuff like the Sukhoi Super Flanker.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

I concur. Late model Flankers are probably the next best thing going for dedicated Air dominance fighters after the Raptor

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As far as cost-effectiveness is concerned Russian planes usually do quite well, but the US have superior technology with the F-22.

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Short term anyway which is what they were designed for. Russian planes come back to bite their user in the butts when they factor in the cost to maintain them over a decade or so and the lack of expandibility in the airframe. An F16 will generally cost more than a comparable MiG29 when first bought, but the Airframe is easy to upgrade, can perform multi mission tasking well and the cost to fly per hour is significantly cheaper do to longevity of components and ease of repair and replacement.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

While the F/A-22 is certainly a very capable design it hasnt had a chance to show its stuff yet.

Therefore I vote for the F-15C/D air superiority fighter version.

It is getting old but its combat record is still very impressive.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

the MiG-29 modernized, easily made, and will out beat the production of any other fighter, rugged and yet still be effective enough to take out the enemy.

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if i had to trust my life to one i would go with the F-22. but for sexiness the Rafale cant be beat.

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Except for the fact that every single time a Mig-29 has gone up against any western fighter it has lost. Combat stats like that dont sell aircraft.

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Could be the crew capability and weapons load it carried? Lets face it there has not been a war for over twenty years where modern industrialised nations have fought each other (bad for the economy) last one was the Falklands.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

This is true for older MiG-29 versions, but what about the new ones? I think the latest versions aren't as expensive to maintain and that it is possible to upgrade early versions to the new standard.

Maybe the MiG29 didn't win any fights yet, but I think they'd have a good chance against planes of their class (it was initially desgined to fight against F-15s and F-16s, if I remember correctly) if you take the latest version and a well-trained pilot (not some Iraqi who'd rather shoot down his wingman).

edit: Here's an argument against the F-22. Tests against other American planes may have turned out well, but it seems that there was a similar test in India between Indian Su-30s and American F-15s with the Indians winning most of the engagements. So judging from that the latest Russian planes would have a chance against the F-22. And according to what I read about initial costs you can get 10 Su-30s for the price of one F-22, even with higher maintenance-costs that seems to be a very good deal.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

yeah i remember that exercise, i actually got to do flight support for it (Cope India). It was pretty widely derided in the USAF community as a dog and pony show for congress in an effort to downplay the F15 and show congress the overwhelming NEED for the F22. That aside, a stock Su30MKI is very competitive against a vanilla C model Eagle. AESA equipped narrows it down a bit A-A wise but the 30's multimission capability still makes it a better bird. A better comparison would be Either the US' E version Eagle or the I,K and S version Eagles. (I would still rather roll with the Su30 in an A-A fight between the 2 though)


I here the 'Export' version thing brought up alot in regards to Russian aircraft performance and i tend to downplay that aspect as plenty of 'export' MiG's have gotten slagged by export US fighters. The first MiG29 kill in the Kosovo war was by the Dutch in an F16. The Greeks have shot down a number of Tuk planes. On the flip side, India has used its MiGs to shoot down Pakistani planes from time to time (and i think some of them were Falcons, dont quote me on that though) Ultimately it comes down to pilot training though so its all relative anyway.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Hands down its the F-22, its just one sleek bird. Second from the top I'd go with the Eurofighter Typhoon, I like its looks. 3rd I'd go with Rafale, F-15 C/D or later Su-27/35 versions.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

I remember reading about that exercise. The F-15s in those test were actually DOWNGRADED to make it fair. The F-15 has never been shot down in combat. The F-22 defeated the F-15 over and over again in combat exercises and managed to get a 144 to zro kill ratio in one engagment and in another engagment something like 4 F-22s shot down something like 20 F-15s without ever being spoted.

The F-22 is easily the most powerful and effective aircraft ever developed. Now could a good Russian pilot flying a Su-37 or some other comparable aircraft down an American F-22 pilot? Of course. It will still generally come down to pilot competence.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Maybe the test in India was manipulated in favour of the Russian planes, but maybe the same was the case for the tests for the F-22.

I think both sides produce awesome planes, the US probably has the lead as far as things like avionics and stealth-technology are concerned, but it seems to me as if the Russians manage to produce very good planes in relation to the money you have to pay for it. They also seem to be more agile, which is probably related to the lack of stealth-technology.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Another thing that comes inot play is circumstance. For example if you both take off knowing that you are heading to a 1 on 1 and you know rougly where then a lot of the "stealth" factor is made redundant. On the other hand if you are flying a routing combat air patrol, expecting no hostilities and you are jumped then it changes things dramatically.

Also things like intelligence and availability of AWACS play a big part. Many A air superority fighters have a huge dependence on those support staff and equpment. This is one huge advantage a (for example) Su-37 Terminator will ahve over an F-22, as "many" are sold to nations that may not have high tech AWACS (and etc.) they are much more standalone.
Similarly due to the fact that the Su-37 is practically made for export, they are very modular so the purchaser can mod them to their needs. this means that if you have the money you can absolutely stuff them with EWM's ECM's ECCM's and various forms of really advanced targeting/tracking/detection equipment. I suspect a "highly" advanced Su-37 would have a darn good shot at a F22 "off the tarmac".

Also, as this is a bit based on "what can take a F22?" style thread, I will point out that the F22 is highly focused on out-of-range first strike. Ideally the F22 will engage from beyond the hostiles max range and get the first launch advantage. However if it is jumped up close it would suffer against a Su37, which is amazingly acrobatic and agile. This also means it has a good chance (combined with the electricla warfare kit previously mentioned) of "dodging" a comparitivly low manouverability long range missile.

However to sum up my thoughts, I think that the Su-37 is of comparable merit to the F22 "genre" planes. However I think the EF Typhoon is also pretty sharp, able to fill nearly any role. Highly versatile. The French Rafale also deserves a mention due to its STOL. Probably the cheapest STOL aircraft that can hold its own in modern aerial combat and the advantage gained by being able to feild multiple aircraft is (numerical superiority) is huge.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Wouldnt quite go that far. The specs on the F22 place it as having VERY capable agility and when combined with TVC and a superior corner rate and thrust to weight ratio, id find it hard for a Su to outright out-maneuver it. Knife fighting might not be what it was designed to do but dont let that fool you into thinking that it CANT.

As far as reliance on AWACs style aircraft, this has always been a useful addition to US aircraft but never a necessity. US birds still packed better radar and ecm suite then virtually any other russian plane (except the 25 and probably the 31). The F22's LPI radar is particuarly impressive. I think in an off the tarmac right at each other game, the F22 will most likely get an attack position first thanks to superior sensors, and can use its speed and energy advantage to vector itself into attack position first. All this assuming the engagement starts BVR of course. Even IF the Su37 knew the F22 was bearing down on it it would still not have a good idea of where it was beyond the immediate reference once the aircraft begin moving against one another.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Possibly. However the Su37 is pretty much the most agile plane ever. Also Im talking really about a Su-37 that has had a lot of time and money invested in it to give it the top of the line whatevers.

But in all honesty the chances are that the plane that gets the drop on the other first will win 99% of the time. Be it an Su-37 vs a mig-21 fishbed ( !!! ), if the 21 jumps the 37 its got a damn good chance it wouldnt normally have.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Well does agility really matter that much with helmet mounted sights and short-range air-to-air missiles that can make 60g turns?

When it comes to best overall fighter: SAAB JAS 39 Gripen. Hands down. The F22 is a relic from the cold war really. It was made to be stationed on a well-guarded airbase in Germany to take down soviet fighters. I can't really see a good use for it in modern warfare. Besides you can get 5 Gripen's for the cost of one F22. I know what I'd choose...

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Not true. It was orinally intended to basically guarded the skies from aircraft but it has grown to be much more, hence why it was termorarily named the F/A-22. It is capable of carrying ground attack weapons and can certainly perform as a strike aircraft. Not to mention later on it is hoped to develop the F-22 into the Strike Raptor, an elongated version that could carry more and larger munitions for hitting ground targets. The F-22 is actually, much like almost all planes designed now, a multirole aircraft.

However you are right in that it is insanely expensive, but you get what you pay for. You say you can get 5 Gripens for the cost of 1 Raptor, but for all we know one Raptor could shoot down 5 Gripens. The Raptor is designed to engage multiple targets without being detected and in all of it's tests it's been able to do exactly that.

The Gripen and Typhoon ARE damn fine planes though. A good European pilot in either craft could hold his own against a Raptor. Let's just hope it never comes to that.

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Do you think the USAAF would send such a rare and expensive plane like the F22 on a CAS or strike mission when they could send a F-16 that makes the job better than the F-22?

I really doubt that. This kinda reminds me of the HMS Gotland's, a submarine in the Swedish navy, trip to San Diego. It whopped an American carrier group (we're talking sinking USS Ronald Reagan, Nimitz class), and more than one time what I've heard. I've also heard about various nuclear submarine and destroyer kills. We're talking about one, not a wolfpack, little submarine with 29 sailors in it, half of them conscripts, infiltrating a Nimitz class carrier battle group and sinking the carrier, the most expensive and powerful toy in the world.
The Gotland class is designed on the same thinking as the Gripen: Small, "uncomplicated" (you know what I mean), affordable and loaded with unconventional technology (Gotland's AIP system, Gripen's datalink to name a few), lethal weapons and it must be able to take on any threat it might run into.

Some eye-candy:

http://forums.filefront.com/gallery/..._periskop1.jpg
USS Ronald Reagan

http://forums.filefront.com/gallery/..._periskop1.jpg

Here's a video interview with the commander of HMS Gotland. Very interesting.

http://www.nbc4.tv/video/10117407/detail.html

If it doesn't work, use Internet Explorer, if that doesn't work, read the transcript here.

I might've gone alittle offtopic here but my point is: Don't underestimate the Gripen. Maybe you will be leasing a few Gripens in a year or two. Who knows.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

I dont deny it, the US militaries claim to fame is Force Multiplier though. We base our abilities around having many components that work in conjunction to radically enhance another weapon systems performance. A single F22 is great, an F22 when paired with an AWACS is ridiculously effective. Same goes for our Naval Fleet. We train with friendly navies to sharpen war fighter skills across the board. part of that is training for when things DONT go well. Its never been impossible to get within attack range of a carrier group, its making said attack and living to tell about it. Deisel boats patrolling coastal waters will ALWAYS have an advantage over US ships since by default they are quieter and more effective at passive defense. Sending that same deisel across the ocean by itself to launch a multi focus strike on a carrier group, land targets and convoy on the way home is a bit more difficult than had say a Seawolf been doing it.

The USAF focus has gone away from having large expensive fleets of cheap fighters to having smaller more effective flights of elite ones. The per unit cost of 5 gripens may be cheaper than a single F22 but its cheaper to have a single F22 with a single support crew and pilot team that can do the same job as those 5 gripens though. What you lose in initial payment you make up for in service and retention savings. We are replacing almost 300 of F15's with what will ultimately be less than 100 F22's. Thats money that wont have to go for training ground crew, stationing them across the world, paying for their housing etc and also less hangar space and infrastructure to support said planes. It actually SAVES money in the long run to buy a next gen uber fighter than to constantly seek to upgrade you current gen stuff hence the JSF popularity.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

I think the point was that all of the F22 fanboys think its untouchable. EF2000 typhoons, Rafales, Su-37's, (not too sure about gripen specs ) the gripen are all in the same league.

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Not by the standard the air warfare community goes by. The F22 is recognized internationally as 5th generation. Nothing else currently in flight is beyond 4.5th

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

What is the definiotion of a 5th gen and a 4.5th Gen. How can you distinctly group planes into half generations? How do you distinguish a 4.99th gen from a 5th gen?

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

I dont write the rules my friend. But the thing is the seperation between updated old tech (personified in the EF2000, Rafale, and F18E) and development of radical new ones. Despite anything you might have heard, the EF2000 and Gripen and all the other late 4th gen aircraft are still cold war relics utilizing little more than updated avionics inside what essentially is an unremarkable airframe. The F22 however utilises not only advanced stealth features but incorporates it into a highly manuevarable airframe. Its ridiculouly fast, has an amazing fire control suite and factors in technology that hasnt even been developed yet. Multisensor suites in a LPI radar, such as wide and narrow band switching pulse relayed emitted signals. Interconnectivity to link with other fighters in the air battle. It just goes on and on with that damn thing, its the reason it cost so damn much. However much i like other aircraft there is no escaping that you can do things in an F22 you simply cannot do in another fighter. Doesnt work the same as with the other aircraft. The Ef2000 simply does the current fighters job a little bit better and a little bit faster.

A better example would be to look at infantry weapons. 4th generation would be a bolt gun, 4.5 a semi auto rifle while fifth generation would be a fully tricked out SOPMOD. Its whether or not the emergent technology radically alters the way fighting is done. Infantry work didnt get revolutionized until the advent of the Assault Rifle, not the semi auto.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

had to google "SOPMOD" but I think I see your point. Also, sorry for phrasing my question sarcastically (ish) but good answer.

However upon doing some resarch (to clarify an earlier thought) I think the F22 is a damn good plane, however its not necessarily the best air superority fighter. For example you may need to cover a physically large area (like say running simeltaneous CAP's in different places) where mulitple planes of lower cost (and ability) are more advantageous than a single "uber-plane". The F22 appears to be a supremacy fighter(attacker really ?). To gain the initial upper hand you would need a better cost per unit ratio. For example, you may choose the field X many F/A 18's instead, so you can cover more ground (or whatever). It has become apparent to me that wether or not an F22 can shoot down X many F/A 18's (or whatever) is irrelevant. All you need from a superority is a significant step ahead of the enemy (enough to ensure a general upper hand per plane) and then massive quantities of aircraft and related resourses.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Air Dominance as endlessly preached by my superiors isnt about shooting down everything in the air, its about having such a demanding presence that the enemy simply doesnt fly. The days of needing to cover huge swathes of sky with lots of fighters ended back in WW2. Planes require large stationary structures to land and and service them so all you really do is patrol those few areas. a Few F22's being vectored to an enemy the moment it leaves the ground (thanks to supercruise its actually effective this time) out strips the value of having lots of fighters burning up fuel searching empty air or at least thats what my boss tells me. It took the Iraqis less than 3 days to simply keep their numerically superior air force on the ground once they caught on to the fact that what went up never came back. Same with the Israelis and their wars. a Few days of intense air action followed by the loser keeping his planes at home for the remainder of the war.

I see your point however. I have to disagree with the assessment. Most nations arent going to want to throw away fighters in attacks they only have a very slight chance of winning no matter the number discrepancy. If one F15 wing can shut down an entire air corrider and a single F22 can do the job of an entire F15 wing, where does the value come in using that many planes using that much fuel needing that much repair work and endangering that many pilots lives versus the 'silver bullet' approach the USAF is trying to cram down our throats. My dad said it best. "Hyper War is Boring"

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Of course those victories were against broken countries which had straight factory line MiG-29's, are you going to now bring up argument of the Modern M1A2's against iraqi Manual operated turrerted T-72's :lol: Then again that never happened since most of them were air-striked while the Iraqi crews were having dinner. :lol:

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Lord i do get tired of hearing that trumpet call. Boohoo, it was the 'export' version waaaah!
Please.
As ive said, an 'Export' F16 smoked the 1st kill in the damn war (Kosovo).
'export' F15's to Israel and Saudi have racked a number of kills on MiGs. The Iraqis had some of the most combat experianced pilots in the world and they still got hosed. The Serbs had well trained pilots as well, same goes for Syria Jordan, Egypt and everyone else whose MiGs and Su's have been spanked by export version American planes. Hell, even the Pakistanis have racked up kills with the Falcon. I will grant you that an Iraqi MiG25 did manage to kill a hornet though so they arent all totally worthless.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/mil...rd-thread.html

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Yes. The F-22 can do anything the F-16 can, but it can do so without being detected, do it more accurately, and do it faster.

The main reason the F-22 can take on so many fighters at once is that it is stealthy enough. Like I said eight F-22s engaged 33 F-15s and were never detected, ever. The F-22s were not detected until after the exercise was over when they flew overhead of the F-15s.

That is where your comparison fails. The sub you are talking about has the same advantage in the sea as the F-22 has in the air. And i'm not saying the F-22 is invincible. A good pilot could certainly shoot it down in a Typhoon or Gripen but they would have to be substantially better thenthe F-22 pilot. If you put two pilots with the exact same skill level, one in an F-22 and one in a Gripen the Gripen would always lose.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

The Gotland class is designed to destroy any hostile navy that crosses Swedish territorial waters, it's not designed to do missions across the atlantic and it's not designed to attack land targets. And I'm sure that if lets say Iran got a sub comparable to the Gotland they wouldn't sent it away on some Pearl Harbor mission. They would have it at home scaring away US carrier groups.

I wouldn't say that the JSF project is popular, Norway and Denmark is already looking for Gripens or Eurofighters instead.

I hardly disagree. If anything Gripen is the plane that's most suited for modern warfare. What kind of help can the F22 offer in Iraq that your current fleet of fighters can't handle? Or in a possible war with Iran or North Korea?

To explain why I need to talk alittle about the background of the Gripen and the Swedish airforce. The Gripen wasn't designed to be an air superiority fighter or a strike fighter. It was designed to protect Sweden from the Russians and everything they could throw at us. The Gripen is designed to be on the field, not in a hangar. Actually the Gripen will never be on an airbase if war breaks out, it will be out on the field the whole time (literally). We have something called BAS 90 (aka road bases) here in Sweden. Roadbases are just that: Roads. There's alot of roadbases shattered across Sweden (roadbases are basically 800 meters of reinforced country-road and a little "parkinglot". Ordinary roads can be used in emergencies if they're straight enough. The Gripen only needs 800 meters to land/take off. On the roadbase the Gripen can be refueled, rearmed and be on it's way on a new mission within 10 minutes (missions with waypoints, satellite pictures etc. can be sent to the cockpit via the datalink when it's in the air). The engine can be changed in the field in one hour. Come back when the F22 can land on a road in the middle of the night and it's -30c outside :). The Gripen can do all tasks a modern fighter faces extremely well (air-to-air, air-to-ground, air-to-sea, reconnaissance). It has to, it's the only plane we got, the F22 can't (don't tell me that the F22 is a good CAS plane, because that's a lie).

I think most wars during the lifespan of the Gripen will be fought in under-developed countries with crappy infra structure. There the Gripen would have a huge advantage.

Then we have the whole datalink system which doesn't have a counterpart in any other fighter, but I can't get arsed to explain all that, I've written enough in this post ;).

But we can't compare the F22 to the Gripen really, they're made to do 2 completely different things.

No it can't (well it can do it, but alot worse). I can promise you that you will never see a F22 on a CAS mission. Why? Because the F-16 does the job alot better (it can carry much more payload than the F22, unless you use those weapon "racks" on the wings but that moots the whole stealth thing) and it doesn't cost nearly as much to repair if it gets hit by an AK-47 bullet/shrapnel from the bombs it dropped/ground-to-air missile that explodes close to it. Not to mention if the whole plane would get shot down. The F22 is too fancy to risk being shot down on a mission like that.

I think you misunderstood my comparison then. My point was that if I'd say that a Swedish submarine could kick the ass out of an American carrier group two years ago the Americans on this forum would've laughed and started to throw statistics of different weapon systems at me.

I'd love to see a duel between the Gripen and the F22.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

And the F-22 is designed to, primarily, keep control of the skies. It can also perform in the strike role. For CAS we have the F-16 and the A-10 so the F-22 doesn't need to fill that role.

I agree, which is why I was very specific in the title. Air Superiority. The main point of my question was this: Assuming you have two pilots of equal skill what aircraft will come out on top?


Actually your right. I completely forgot the F-16 also performs CAS. And yes the F-22 is too expensive for CAS but that isn't what it is designed for. It is designed to keep control of the skies and to perform with the rest of our stealth fleet in taking down targets behind enemy lines.

I wouldn't have laughed. Generally speaking Europe has some very good submarines(for what they are designed for) and they are especially stealthy and good at defending Europe's shores. But subs don't have anything to do with the F-22 other then they are both high-tech. The F-22 however is designed to kill not just enemy fighters, but multiple enemy fighters at once. A carrier fleet is not designed to kill subs, the F-22 is designed to kill fighters, big difference. In fact the last thing I heard about the F-22 is that wing mates will deploy BVR from each other because the aircraft is so fast and effective they don't need to be flying with one aircraft covering the other.


The F-22 could come out on top, because that is what it is designed for. Now if you were to have a fleet of only F-22s or only Gripens then I would go with the Gripen because it is a true multirole craft where as the F-22 can't perform some missions aas well. But in a dog fight between an F-22 and a Gripen figuring equal pilots the F-22 would win.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Actually, should an F16 take an Ak47 hit, its liable to bring the entire aircraft down. You probably WONT ever see the F22 doing CAS, thats the whole reasoning behind the JSF. The aircraft the F16 is being replaced by. F16's BTW are terrible at CAS. They have pissy loiter time, carry little ordanance, and arent the most accurate platforms to bomb by. A better aircraft would be the A10 of course or combat helicopters but i digress.

On a seprate note, the JSF is HUGELY popular from a order perspective. If you combine all the nations which have ordered the EF2000, the Rafale AND the Gripen, its still less than half of how many nations are actively pursuing the JSF (not adding those with 'interest to buy' im talking already put the money up for it.)
The rafale has been bought by nobody with Saudi Arabia, Germany and England being the only nations planning any real deployment of the EF2000. 2 of those nations have already put money down for the JSF in any event. That indicates 'popular' in my book.

I for one dont understand where this 'too expensive for combat' idea comes from. One of the most expensive birds in the US fleet get used ALL THE TIME. Im talking about the 3 billion a pop B2, and the 90million a bird F15E. If anything, the F22's increased survival likliness would have it being used over both aircraft for the tactical strike role.

In any event im not doubting the operational benefits of the Gripen, i am hoever stating, point blank, that it is NOT the same caliber of fighter that the F22 is. It doesnt matter how fast it can get in the air or how little runway space it takes up because if it cant kill what its flying against its a moot point anyway. Or are you of the belief that the Gripen is a superior Air Superiority bird? because thats what this thread is all about.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

The F/A-22 has the A in the name to show it can do close air support. The thing is do you want to take a aircraft optimized for air superiority and tun it into a mud mover when cheaper and more expendable aircraft can do the job.

A F-15C/D can move mud but its cheaper and more efficient to use a F-16/18/35.

I am curious to see what a AK-47 round would do to a F/A-22 since the Raptors carbon fiber body is darn near bulletproof.

When the first Raptor prototype crashed it was consumed in the fire.

The reason was the contemporary fire fighting rigs used a probe that pierced the aircrafts skin and pumped the fuselage full of fire smothering foam.

The probes could not penetrate the Raptors carbon fiber skin no matter how hard they tried so the prototype was destroyed. New fire fighting gear was developed that would drill through the carbon fiber skin.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Actually last I heard the A was dropped and the service aircraft is now known just as the F-22a(the "a" is just the type letter, it doesn't signify attack). But the F-22 makes a superb strike aircraft if not CAS.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

:bows:

I bow to your superior web browsing Kung Fu.

It was indeed the F/A-22 but was officially changed to F-22A upon its official adoption by the USAF.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

I'd hardly call it that since it was just Wikipedia:p

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Ehh thats where I looked :lol: :clueless:

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

When it is ready for combat if it isnt already is the F-35 that this is a Fighter and a Bomber and has stheal techonlogy. The F-35 has a top speed of mach 2.5-3 if im not misstaken.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

When it is ready for combat if it isnt already is the F-35 that this is a Fighter and a Bomber and has stheal techonlogy. The F-35 has a top speed of mach 2.5-3 if im not misstaken.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Supercruise is listed at Mach 1.5. Afterburner is listed as Mach 1.8

The actual top speed is supposedly classified but it is only theorized that the F-22 and F-35 can do over Mach 2

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Cant imagine the F35 being TOO fast though, single engine with what, about 28,000lbs of thrust pushing a bird not designed for speed through the air, im figuring 1.5 to 1.8 tops. F22 is another story though