Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Do you think the USAAF would send such a rare and expensive plane like the F22 on a CAS or strike mission when they could send a F-16 that makes the job better than the F-22?

I really doubt that. This kinda reminds me of the HMS Gotland's, a submarine in the Swedish navy, trip to San Diego. It whopped an American carrier group (we're talking sinking USS Ronald Reagan, Nimitz class), and more than one time what I've heard. I've also heard about various nuclear submarine and destroyer kills. We're talking about one, not a wolfpack, little submarine with 29 sailors in it, half of them conscripts, infiltrating a Nimitz class carrier battle group and sinking the carrier, the most expensive and powerful toy in the world.
The Gotland class is designed on the same thinking as the Gripen: Small, "uncomplicated" (you know what I mean), affordable and loaded with unconventional technology (Gotland's AIP system, Gripen's datalink to name a few), lethal weapons and it must be able to take on any threat it might run into.

Some eye-candy:

http://forums.filefront.com/gallery/..._periskop1.jpg
USS Ronald Reagan

http://forums.filefront.com/gallery/..._periskop1.jpg

Here's a video interview with the commander of HMS Gotland. Very interesting.

http://www.nbc4.tv/video/10117407/detail.html

If it doesn't work, use Internet Explorer, if that doesn't work, read the transcript here.

I might've gone alittle offtopic here but my point is: Don't underestimate the Gripen. Maybe you will be leasing a few Gripens in a year or two. Who knows.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

I dont deny it, the US militaries claim to fame is Force Multiplier though. We base our abilities around having many components that work in conjunction to radically enhance another weapon systems performance. A single F22 is great, an F22 when paired with an AWACS is ridiculously effective. Same goes for our Naval Fleet. We train with friendly navies to sharpen war fighter skills across the board. part of that is training for when things DONT go well. Its never been impossible to get within attack range of a carrier group, its making said attack and living to tell about it. Deisel boats patrolling coastal waters will ALWAYS have an advantage over US ships since by default they are quieter and more effective at passive defense. Sending that same deisel across the ocean by itself to launch a multi focus strike on a carrier group, land targets and convoy on the way home is a bit more difficult than had say a Seawolf been doing it.

The USAF focus has gone away from having large expensive fleets of cheap fighters to having smaller more effective flights of elite ones. The per unit cost of 5 gripens may be cheaper than a single F22 but its cheaper to have a single F22 with a single support crew and pilot team that can do the same job as those 5 gripens though. What you lose in initial payment you make up for in service and retention savings. We are replacing almost 300 of F15's with what will ultimately be less than 100 F22's. Thats money that wont have to go for training ground crew, stationing them across the world, paying for their housing etc and also less hangar space and infrastructure to support said planes. It actually SAVES money in the long run to buy a next gen uber fighter than to constantly seek to upgrade you current gen stuff hence the JSF popularity.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

I think the point was that all of the F22 fanboys think its untouchable. EF2000 typhoons, Rafales, Su-37's, (not too sure about gripen specs ) the gripen are all in the same league.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Not by the standard the air warfare community goes by. The F22 is recognized internationally as 5th generation. Nothing else currently in flight is beyond 4.5th

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

What is the definiotion of a 5th gen and a 4.5th Gen. How can you distinctly group planes into half generations? How do you distinguish a 4.99th gen from a 5th gen?

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

I dont write the rules my friend. But the thing is the seperation between updated old tech (personified in the EF2000, Rafale, and F18E) and development of radical new ones. Despite anything you might have heard, the EF2000 and Gripen and all the other late 4th gen aircraft are still cold war relics utilizing little more than updated avionics inside what essentially is an unremarkable airframe. The F22 however utilises not only advanced stealth features but incorporates it into a highly manuevarable airframe. Its ridiculouly fast, has an amazing fire control suite and factors in technology that hasnt even been developed yet. Multisensor suites in a LPI radar, such as wide and narrow band switching pulse relayed emitted signals. Interconnectivity to link with other fighters in the air battle. It just goes on and on with that damn thing, its the reason it cost so damn much. However much i like other aircraft there is no escaping that you can do things in an F22 you simply cannot do in another fighter. Doesnt work the same as with the other aircraft. The Ef2000 simply does the current fighters job a little bit better and a little bit faster.

A better example would be to look at infantry weapons. 4th generation would be a bolt gun, 4.5 a semi auto rifle while fifth generation would be a fully tricked out SOPMOD. Its whether or not the emergent technology radically alters the way fighting is done. Infantry work didnt get revolutionized until the advent of the Assault Rifle, not the semi auto.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

had to google "SOPMOD" but I think I see your point. Also, sorry for phrasing my question sarcastically (ish) but good answer.

However upon doing some resarch (to clarify an earlier thought) I think the F22 is a damn good plane, however its not necessarily the best air superority fighter. For example you may need to cover a physically large area (like say running simeltaneous CAP's in different places) where mulitple planes of lower cost (and ability) are more advantageous than a single "uber-plane". The F22 appears to be a supremacy fighter(attacker really ?). To gain the initial upper hand you would need a better cost per unit ratio. For example, you may choose the field X many F/A 18's instead, so you can cover more ground (or whatever). It has become apparent to me that wether or not an F22 can shoot down X many F/A 18's (or whatever) is irrelevant. All you need from a superority is a significant step ahead of the enemy (enough to ensure a general upper hand per plane) and then massive quantities of aircraft and related resourses.

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Air Dominance as endlessly preached by my superiors isnt about shooting down everything in the air, its about having such a demanding presence that the enemy simply doesnt fly. The days of needing to cover huge swathes of sky with lots of fighters ended back in WW2. Planes require large stationary structures to land and and service them so all you really do is patrol those few areas. a Few F22's being vectored to an enemy the moment it leaves the ground (thanks to supercruise its actually effective this time) out strips the value of having lots of fighters burning up fuel searching empty air or at least thats what my boss tells me. It took the Iraqis less than 3 days to simply keep their numerically superior air force on the ground once they caught on to the fact that what went up never came back. Same with the Israelis and their wars. a Few days of intense air action followed by the loser keeping his planes at home for the remainder of the war.

I see your point however. I have to disagree with the assessment. Most nations arent going to want to throw away fighters in attacks they only have a very slight chance of winning no matter the number discrepancy. If one F15 wing can shut down an entire air corrider and a single F22 can do the job of an entire F15 wing, where does the value come in using that many planes using that much fuel needing that much repair work and endangering that many pilots lives versus the 'silver bullet' approach the USAF is trying to cram down our throats. My dad said it best. "Hyper War is Boring"

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Of course those victories were against broken countries which had straight factory line MiG-29's, are you going to now bring up argument of the Modern M1A2's against iraqi Manual operated turrerted T-72's :lol: Then again that never happened since most of them were air-striked while the Iraqi crews were having dinner. :lol:

Re: Best Service Air Superiority Fighter
 

Lord i do get tired of hearing that trumpet call. Boohoo, it was the 'export' version waaaah!
Please.
As ive said, an 'Export' F16 smoked the 1st kill in the damn war (Kosovo).
'export' F15's to Israel and Saudi have racked a number of kills on MiGs. The Iraqis had some of the most combat experianced pilots in the world and they still got hosed. The Serbs had well trained pilots as well, same goes for Syria Jordan, Egypt and everyone else whose MiGs and Su's have been spanked by export version American planes. Hell, even the Pakistanis have racked up kills with the Falcon. I will grant you that an Iraqi MiG25 did manage to kill a hornet though so they arent all totally worthless.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/mil...rd-thread.html