Best Service Air Superiority Fighter

[MrFancypants]

Originally Posted by Roaming East

Short term anyway which is what they were designed for. Russian planes come back to bite their user in the butts when they factor in the cost to maintain them over a decade or so and the lack of expandibility in the airframe. An F16 will generally cost more than a comparable MiG29 when first bought, but the Airframe is easy to upgrade, can perform multi mission tasking well and the cost to fly per hour is significantly cheaper do to longevity of components and ease of repair and replacement.

This is true for older MiG-29 versions, but what about the new ones? I think the latest versions aren't as expensive to maintain and that it is possible to upgrade early versions to the new standard.

Maybe the MiG29 didn't win any fights yet, but I think they'd have a good chance against planes of their class (it was initially desgined to fight against F-15s and F-16s, if I remember correctly) if you take the latest version and a well-trained pilot (not some Iraqi who'd rather shoot down his wingman).

edit: Here's an argument against the F-22. Tests against other American planes may have turned out well, but it seems that there was a similar test in India between Indian Su-30s and American F-15s with the Indians winning most of the engagements. So judging from that the latest Russian planes would have a chance against the F-22. And according to what I read about initial costs you can get 10 Su-30s for the price of one F-22, even with higher maintenance-costs that seems to be a very good deal.

[Roaming East]

yeah i remember that exercise, i actually got to do flight support for it (Cope India). It was pretty widely derided in the USAF community as a dog and pony show for congress in an effort to downplay the F15 and show congress the overwhelming NEED for the F22. That aside, a stock Su30MKI is very competitive against a vanilla C model Eagle. AESA equipped narrows it down a bit A-A wise but the 30's multimission capability still makes it a better bird. A better comparison would be Either the US' E version Eagle or the I,K and S version Eagles. (I would still rather roll with the Su30 in an A-A fight between the 2 though)


I here the 'Export' version thing brought up alot in regards to Russian aircraft performance and i tend to downplay that aspect as plenty of 'export' MiG's have gotten slagged by export US fighters. The first MiG29 kill in the Kosovo war was by the Dutch in an F16. The Greeks have shot down a number of Tuk planes. On the flip side, India has used its MiGs to shoot down Pakistani planes from time to time (and i think some of them were Falcons, dont quote me on that though) Ultimately it comes down to pilot training though so its all relative anyway.

[Octovon]

Hands down its the F-22, its just one sleek bird. Second from the top I'd go with the Eurofighter Typhoon, I like its looks. 3rd I'd go with Rafale, F-15 C/D or later Su-27/35 versions.

[Afterburner]

Originally Posted by MrFancypants

edit: Here's an argument against the F-22. Tests against other American planes may have turned out well, but it seems that there was a similar test in India between Indian Su-30s and American F-15s with the Indians winning most of the engagements. So judging from that the latest Russian planes would have a chance against the F-22. And according to what I read about initial costs you can get 10 Su-30s for the price of one F-22, even with higher maintenance-costs that seems to be a very good deal.

I remember reading about that exercise. The F-15s in those test were actually DOWNGRADED to make it fair. The F-15 has never been shot down in combat. The F-22 defeated the F-15 over and over again in combat exercises and managed to get a 144 to zro kill ratio in one engagment and in another engagment something like 4 F-22s shot down something like 20 F-15s without ever being spoted.

The F-22 is easily the most powerful and effective aircraft ever developed. Now could a good Russian pilot flying a Su-37 or some other comparable aircraft down an American F-22 pilot? Of course. It will still generally come down to pilot competence.

[MrFancypants]

Originally Posted by Afterburner

I remember reading about that exercise. The F-15s in those test were actually DOWNGRADED to make it fair. The F-15 has never been shot down in combat. The F-22 defeated the F-15 over and over again in combat exercises and managed to get a 144 to zro kill ratio in one engagment and in another engagment something like 4 F-22s shot down something like 20 F-15s without ever being spoted.

The F-22 is easily the most powerful and effective aircraft ever developed. Now could a good Russian pilot flying a Su-37 or some other comparable aircraft down an American F-22 pilot? Of course. It will still generally come down to pilot competence.

Maybe the test in India was manipulated in favour of the Russian planes, but maybe the same was the case for the tests for the F-22.

I think both sides produce awesome planes, the US probably has the lead as far as things like avionics and stealth-technology are concerned, but it seems to me as if the Russians manage to produce very good planes in relation to the money you have to pay for it. They also seem to be more agile, which is probably related to the lack of stealth-technology.

[SVD_Sniper]

Another thing that comes inot play is circumstance. For example if you both take off knowing that you are heading to a 1 on 1 and you know rougly where then a lot of the "stealth" factor is made redundant. On the other hand if you are flying a routing combat air patrol, expecting no hostilities and you are jumped then it changes things dramatically.

Also things like intelligence and availability of AWACS play a big part. Many A air superority fighters have a huge dependence on those support staff and equpment. This is one huge advantage a (for example) Su-37 Terminator will ahve over an F-22, as "many" are sold to nations that may not have high tech AWACS (and etc.) they are much more standalone.
Similarly due to the fact that the Su-37 is practically made for export, they are very modular so the purchaser can mod them to their needs. this means that if you have the money you can absolutely stuff them with EWM's ECM's ECCM's and various forms of really advanced targeting/tracking/detection equipment. I suspect a "highly" advanced Su-37 would have a darn good shot at a F22 "off the tarmac".

Also, as this is a bit based on "what can take a F22?" style thread, I will point out that the F22 is highly focused on out-of-range first strike. Ideally the F22 will engage from beyond the hostiles max range and get the first launch advantage. However if it is jumped up close it would suffer against a Su37, which is amazingly acrobatic and agile. This also means it has a good chance (combined with the electricla warfare kit previously mentioned) of "dodging" a comparitivly low manouverability long range missile.

However to sum up my thoughts, I think that the Su-37 is of comparable merit to the F22 "genre" planes. However I think the EF Typhoon is also pretty sharp, able to fill nearly any role. Highly versatile. The French Rafale also deserves a mention due to its STOL. Probably the cheapest STOL aircraft that can hold its own in modern aerial combat and the advantage gained by being able to feild multiple aircraft is (numerical superiority) is huge.

[Roaming East]

Wouldnt quite go that far. The specs on the F22 place it as having VERY capable agility and when combined with TVC and a superior corner rate and thrust to weight ratio, id find it hard for a Su to outright out-maneuver it. Knife fighting might not be what it was designed to do but dont let that fool you into thinking that it CANT.

As far as reliance on AWACs style aircraft, this has always been a useful addition to US aircraft but never a necessity. US birds still packed better radar and ecm suite then virtually any other russian plane (except the 25 and probably the 31). The F22's LPI radar is particuarly impressive. I think in an off the tarmac right at each other game, the F22 will most likely get an attack position first thanks to superior sensors, and can use its speed and energy advantage to vector itself into attack position first. All this assuming the engagement starts BVR of course. Even IF the Su37 knew the F22 was bearing down on it it would still not have a good idea of where it was beyond the immediate reference once the aircraft begin moving against one another.

[SVD_Sniper]

Possibly. However the Su37 is pretty much the most agile plane ever. Also Im talking really about a Su-37 that has had a lot of time and money invested in it to give it the top of the line whatevers.

But in all honesty the chances are that the plane that gets the drop on the other first will win 99% of the time. Be it an Su-37 vs a mig-21 fishbed ( !!! ), if the 21 jumps the 37 its got a damn good chance it wouldnt normally have.

[Mast3rofPuppets]

Well does agility really matter that much with helmet mounted sights and short-range air-to-air missiles that can make 60g turns?

When it comes to best overall fighter: SAAB JAS 39 Gripen. Hands down. The F22 is a relic from the cold war really. It was made to be stationed on a well-guarded airbase in Germany to take down soviet fighters. I can't really see a good use for it in modern warfare. Besides you can get 5 Gripen's for the cost of one F22. I know what I'd choose...

[Afterburner]

Originally Posted by Mast3rofPuppets

he F22 is a relic from the cold war really. It was made to be stationed on a well-guarded airbase in Germany to take down soviet fighters. I can't really see a good use for it in modern warfare.

Not true. It was orinally intended to basically guarded the skies from aircraft but it has grown to be much more, hence why it was termorarily named the F/A-22. It is capable of carrying ground attack weapons and can certainly perform as a strike aircraft. Not to mention later on it is hoped to develop the F-22 into the Strike Raptor, an elongated version that could carry more and larger munitions for hitting ground targets. The F-22 is actually, much like almost all planes designed now, a multirole aircraft.

However you are right in that it is insanely expensive, but you get what you pay for. You say you can get 5 Gripens for the cost of 1 Raptor, but for all we know one Raptor could shoot down 5 Gripens. The Raptor is designed to engage multiple targets without being detected and in all of it's tests it's been able to do exactly that.

The Gripen and Typhoon ARE damn fine planes though. A good European pilot in either craft could hold his own against a Raptor. Let's just hope it never comes to that.