Re: Best plane of WW2
 

LOL, u know nothing of the p39, do you? IT WAS ONE OF THE BEST FIGHTER PLANES OF ALL TIME!!! THE RUSSIANS MOWED DOWN THE GERMANS WITH IT! THE TOP ALLIED ACE SCORED ALL BUT 6 OF HIS 63 KILLS IN THE P-39!!! Learn your stuff first man. We used against the Zero, it was no match. But, used against the 109, it had more armor, better turn radius, bout as fast, and better guns. THe P-39 could ranks in the top 10 fighters of WW2. And, the Pfiel? That never saw combat. Was a great plane, far superior to the P-51, as proven in US Airforce tests, but we are talking about combat planes, not ones that barely made it off the shelve.

Re: Best plane of WW2
 

I was actually suprised you and I were in a heated argument, we usually get along with no real problems. I already know Im bullheaded so the Ram thing fits LOL

IIRC Pappy flew alot of different aircraft before he resigned his commision and went to fly for the AVG. He left teh AVG when WW2 started partly because he said he was having problems collecting on some Zero's he shot down.

Re: Best plane of WW2
 

Yes I remember that from a book I read about the history of VMF-214. I was just thinking that going from a bi-plane to any monowing fighter back then would have sparked a similar opinion in many a pilot regardless of how lackluster it was to become only a few short years later. And I agree with you about the P-39 Airacobra. It is definitely one of my top 5 favorite aircraft of all time. Tricycle gear, cool name, monster cannon ....whats not to love?

Heres a 'what if' for everyone to knaw on .....What if they went ahead and made the decision to supercharge the Allisons on all the P-39s produced. Would the Airacobra have gone down in history as one of our most successful air superiority fighters of the war? Would there have even been a need for the P-51 series? Would the history books have shown massive formations of B-17s and B-24s under escort from swarms of P-39s ( and P-63s later on ) over Europe instead?

What do you all think?

Re: Best plane of WW2
 

P-39 versus Zero:

Actually the P-39 though much maligned as a dog actually had a 1.1:1 kill ratio in the Pacific. That means the P-39 pilots were giving slighty better than they got.

The Pilots who first got their P-39's in New Guineau at 17 mile strip basically saw a bunch of crates arrived. They had no groundcrews and no manuals and had to borrow tools but spent the next two weeks assembling and testing their P-39's. After they felt comfortable they started flying combat air patrols.

Another problem encountered mostly on Guadalcanal were most of the P-39's were actually Brit P-400's with Brit oxygen equipment. US oxygen equipment was not compatible so pilots could not fly over about 15,000ft without oxygen. The 20mm cannon was loved as a much superior weapon to the very low velocity 37mm gun. I have heard a story that crashed P-39's on Guadalcanal and New Guineau had to have a guard on them immediately lest the P-39 pilots scavenge the 20mm guns out of them to install in their P-39's in place of the 37mm gun.

I have read in multiple sources that many P-39 pilots removed the .30cal wing guns as they were considered worthless and the weight removed improved the performance.

When you consider the pilots had no prior training in P-39's and had to teach themselves the aircraft, and started performing CAP's within two weeks is amazing. The US P-39 pilots did suffer bad casulties but came up to speed very quickly on how to engage in combat with a Zero.

With both aircraft taking off from a stop the P-39 left the ground first and arrived at 5000ft as the Zero was arriving at 4000ft.

Below 10,000ft and from a cruising speed of 230knots the P-39D had a very obvious acceleration from the Zero.

From 5000ft ot 10,000ft the P-39 climbed to altitude 6 seconds before the Zero. From 10,000ft to 14,800ft the P-39 and Zero were almost equal. From 14,800ft to 20,000ft the P-39 arrived 5 min after the Zero.

From rollout to 14,800ft the P-39 maintained a climbing advantage but over 14,800ft ran out of power very rapidly.

Max Speed P-39D: 360mph

Max Speed A6M model 21 Zero: 330mph

Above 200mph the Zero also suffered a noticeable reduction in manuverability due to airflow over the large ailerons and rudder causing the stick to become harder to move. All Allied pilots quickly learned to keep airspeed over 200mph and not to get into a turning fight with the Zero.


P-39 versus Bf109:

The Soviets first P-39's were actually ex-British P-400's. They differed by havng a Hispano Suiza 20mm cannon in place of the M-4 37mm cannon, Brit .303 MG's, British oxygen system, Brit radios, British fire extinguisher, etc. This was not as much a problem for the Soviets as they were already operating British equipment such as Hurricanes, and Spitfires.

The first thing the Soviets did was strip everything including oxygen and all but pilot armor out of the P-39's. The Soviets even stripped out the 4 x 7.62mm MG's, ammo boxes and firing gear out fo the wings. Pokryshkin insisted the radios stay as they were vital to his new air combat tactics. The Soviets were able to remove almost 1800lbs out of each aircraft. The Soviets then added between 300-500lbs of weight to the nose to balance out the plane to be more nose heavy.

This left a 37mm or 20mm cannon in the nose and 2 x 12.7mm MG's. This was considered adequate firepower on the Eastern front and was actaully heavier than the Bf109's.

Bf109F usually had 1 x 20mm cannon and 2 x 7.92mm MG's. Bf109G's had 1 x 30mm or 1 x 20mm cannon and 2 x 13mm MG's.

The Bf109F and the Soviet modified P-39D/P-400's top speed and power to weight ratio was almost even. Due to its slippery aerodynamic shape the P-39 had better initial climb because it did not bleed off energy very fast but in a sustained climb the Bf109F was better. The P-39 turned much better than the Bf109's and dove better. Against the Bf109G the P-39 was still a better turner but didnt climb as well.

The FW-190A was considered a more dangerous advesary. The Soviet P-39 could outturn and out zoom climb the Fw-190A but the Fw-190A rolled much better, and had a better top speed. Dive speed was about even.

The main thing in the Soviets P-39's favour was that both the Soviet VVS and the German Luftwaffe were both primarily tactical air forces whose main purpose was direct battlefield close air support or behind the battlefield in support of the troops. As such combat very rarely took place over 5000m and usually was under 3000m. At this altitude the P-39 thrived.

Alexander Pokryshkin who finished the war as Soviets second highest ace liked hte P-39 so much that on early 1945 when his squadrom transferred to La-7 fighters Pokryshkin refused his La-7 and flew his P-39 til the end of the war, flying the La-7 only occasionally.

Another myth is that P-39's were used by the Soviets primarily as tank busters. FALSE!

The US sent the Soviets almost exclusively M54 HE shells which were worthless against tanks but lethal to bombers and fighters. The muzzle velocity was only about 600ms

Soviets used the P-39 as they would any other fighter. It mostly did fighter escort, strafing, flak suppresion, and free hunt.

There were a number of Soviet aces who had more kills in P-39's than most other Allied pilots in better aircraft types.

Re: Best plane of WW2
 

Biggest Achilles heel to the P-39 which is one of the main reasons it was pulled from service was that it had fairly short legs. Not a big deal over Russia where your squadron may be only 20miles behind the front, but its a big deal when you have to fly from Guadalcanal to say Bougainville or Rabaul.

P-51B and P-38J.L pilots could squeeze over 2000miles range out of their aircraft. P-39 was lucky if it could do half that.

Pilots flying out of New Guineau had range problems since they had to climb over the Owen Stanley mountains to get to Lae or Buna on the north and northeast coast where the Japs were.

Now add a fuel miserly Merlin to a P-39? Yeah I think that would have been sweet.

Also a note of interest, The P-63 Kingcobra did not have a supercharger but had many aerodynamic improvements. Performance was said to be almost equal to the P-51A but the USAAF did not want to adopt another fighter design, they wanted to concentrate on one model. If the P-63 had gotten the Merlin of Griffon engine and the 20mm camnnon it would have been a heck of a nasty air combat fighter. I am partial to the P-63D Kingcobra with the actual bibble canopy.

Re: Best plane of WW2
 

Yeah. If I am correct, the reason that the Army/Airforce forced the removal of the superchargers was that the big intake ducts weren't "areodynamically effecient.":lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Best plane of WW2
 

Want a good laugh?

NACA (National Advisory Council for Aeronautics), the forerunner of NASA, advised the Army that superchragers were not needed.

In the P-39's case NACA advised on redesigning the radiator intakes and exhausts, nose landing gear door covers, and the carburetor air intake scoop behind the cockpit, these mods did increase the top speed and reduced buffeting. Then NACA recommended removing the superchrager system.

Back then NACA reasoned that supercharger systems were so large, bulky, and heavy that removing the supercharger would make the plane light enough to negate the downside of removing the supercharger. This was fine until air combat moved to over 15,000ft and suddenly the P-39 and P-40 were crippled at altitude. Below 15,000ft where the supercharger was not as important the P-39 and P-40 kicked butt.

Re: Best plane of WW2
 

Okey. I ask this out of stupidity (because I dont know shit about the P-39), but could the M-4(?) 37mm be fitted with armor-piercing shells? :confused:

And you said something about the regular 37mm HE shells, those must have been HIGHLY effective against troop concentrations and soft targets, true?

Re: Best plane of WW2
 

The P-39 was absolutely devestating strafing soft targets and soft targets. Would have been even deadlier if the M4 cannon didnt have such a slow rate of fire. Thats why the 20mm cannon was preferred, its much better trajectory made it easier to hit targts and still fired explosive rounds.

There was a AP shell for the M4 37mm cannon but the US never sent any AP ammo for the M4 37mm gun to the Soviets.

Re: Best plane of WW2
 

But did the USAF use the AP-firing ammo?