Sinking of the Bismarck, Dorsetshire should have stayed?

[Admiral Donutz]

We all know of the sinking of the Schlachtschiffe Bismarck, the best know battleship of "der Bismarck-Klasse" (her sistership being the Tirpitz) and how she sunk after being scattled by her own crew:

"Following an abortive air strike that afternoon in which fourteen Swordfish mistakenly attacked (but missed) Sheffield, a second strike of fifteen Swordfish took off from Ark Royal at 1910 that evening. Over the next hour or so, in conditions of low clouds, strong winds, and fading daylight, the aircraft released thirteen torpedoes in a series of attacks against the German battleship. While the poor weather made these attacks difficult, it also threw off the aim of the German antiaircraft gunners, and no planes were lost. Two torpedoes struck Bismarck, one with little effect, but the other wrecked her steering gear and jammed the rudder. This lucky blow sealed her fate. Slowed to a crawl by the damage, Bismarck could no longer escape her converging pursuers.

After midnight on the 27th, one Polish and four British destroyers closed the range and made multiple torpedo attacks on Bismarck. A few hours after dawn, the British heavy warships steamed into view, and battleships King George V and Rodney engaged Bismarck at a range of 16,000 yards. German gunnery was inaccurate, probably owing to crew exhaustion, and after an hour and a half Bismarck was reduced to a blazing shambles. Torpedoed twice more, and eventually scuttled by her surviving crew, the German battleship sank some 300 nautical miles west of Ushant, France. Only 110 of her crew of 2,222 survived the sinking. "

"The Dorsetshire and Maori undertook rescue work, but were forced to break off at 1140 when a submarine was reported in the area. The British ships had picked up 110 of the Bismarck's company, including 4 officers. A German fishing vessel, which had been operating from Bordeaux as a weather reporting ship, is thought to have rescued another 100 and a few more may have been picked up by U-boats."

Now the question is if it was right of the Dorsetshire to leave the survivors behind because of reports say an u-boot had been spotted. Shouldn't the Dorsetshire have stayed and continued picking up survivors?

In my opinion she should have, no ship is to be attacked carrying out resque operation and i doubt that the uboat crew would have attacked knowing that the Dorsetshire was trying to save as many souls of their (the germans) own comrades. The Dorsetshire should have stayed, raised red cross flags, lower any war banner she might be carrying and sent out uncoded morse code messages saying that she was picking up survivors of the Bismarck and will not attack unless provoked.

So many more souls could have been saved that day, if only the commanders of the Dorsetshire would have had the guts to stay and trust that the german uboat would not fire at a ship picking up germans.

[MrFancypants]

I heard a story about a destroyed that was sunk during rescue operations, after that it was general policy not to help them.
And no offense, but the British navy didn't care all too much about rescuing people who would otherwise drown. I read about another incident where a German submarine sank a ship with many civilians on board. When they noticed that they picked up as many survivors as they could and tried to reach the nearest coast. They also radioed that they are transporting civilians on their deck and were promptly attacked by a plane. Of course they had to dive then, don't know what happened to those who were left on deck.
Well the book in which I read this was quite old and maybe not extremely accurate. There were also stories about how people from both sides helped survivors, but those were mostly individual acts on one captain instead of orders by naval staff.

[Admiral Donutz]

That would have been the locania incident (also discussed on this forum by me a few times) where a uboat picked up survivors of the Laconia (which carried civilians and soldiers) , raised red cross flags and radioed messages saying: "If any ship will assist the ship-wrecked 'Laconia'-crew, I will not attack providing I am not being attacked by ship or air forces. I picked up 193 men. 4, 53 South, 11, 26 West. - German submarine." but then was attacked by a american airplane nonetheless.

This incident prompted one of the most controversial order Dönitz ever issued, usually known as the Laconia order today, it made it absolutely clear that no U-boats were to take part in any rescue operations from that date and leave any survivors in the sea since the Americans clearly didn't repsected the rules of war thus there was no reason anymore to do the same in return. Up until that time U-boats had on very many occasions helped the survivors of their victims with supplies, water, directions to nearest land and so on.


Hartenstein's U-156 loaded with Laconia survivors

see:
http://uboat.net/ops/laconia.htm

[Gauntlet]

damn americans...why couldnt they just send some Catalinas and help the rescue? but...noooOooo...they had to attack the sub...

Anyway, I'd say they definetly should have picked up survivors whit Dorsetshire. This is just what happened 2 1/2 years later when Scharnhorst was sunk in the Barents Sea...IIRC only 29 were picked up, those who could swim fastest...

[MrFancypants]

Picking up survivors isn't so easy, the water is usually very cold in the Atlantic even more so in the Barents Sea, so they can survive only for several minutes. Often the survivors are coated in oil and or injured so that it is impossible to get them out of the water. So as captain you have to decide if you want to spend a lot of time standing still to rescue some of your enemies, or if you want to guarantee the safety of your crew.
I'm not saying that it is correct what they did, but I can understand if a captain puts the safety of his own people first. It just shows that war is wrong, it makes you do things which seem logical at the moment but are opposed to everything you believe in.
People who disregard this and are willing to risk everything to rescue others even if it's the enemy and even if you have orders not to do so earn a lot of respect, but I don't know if we are in the position to judge those who were more worried about the job they were supposed to do.

[Pathfinder05]

Originally Posted by Gauntlet

damn americans...why couldnt they just send some Catalinas and help the rescue? but...noooOooo...they had to attack the sub...

Anyway, I'd say they definetly should have picked up survivors whit Dorsetshire. This is just what happened 2 1/2 years later when Scharnhorst was sunk in the Barents Sea...IIRC only 29 were picked up, those who could swim fastest...

Well, the Scharnhorst was in rough seas. The sea north of Norway is very deep and threcherous, just like the rest of the North Atlantic. Wasn't really the fault of the British ships.

[Gauntlet]

Originally Posted by Pathfinder05

Well, the Scharnhorst was in rough seas. The sea north of Norway is very deep and threcherous, just like the rest of the North Atlantic. Wasn't really the fault of the British ships.

Do I need to even comment that?
You know as well as me that that isnt the reason. I mean, afterall they pic up their own guys.

The Scharnhorst acciden was much like the Bismarck; she finaly went into sea, and large forces from the British Home Fleet used their chance to get her. And...the Brits said that there was subs in the proximate area...therefore so few survived...

I cant not even imagine what it must have felt like when those "lucky" few survivors got of the stricken ship, only to swim as fast as they could, and then see the rescue ship go away at full speed...

[MrFancypants]

True, but those on the merchant-ships which were sunk by the Scharnhorst didn't feel much better.

[Gauntlet]

dude...I'm sure they picked up survivors. Besides, the merchantships usually carried lifeboats, a luxuary the warships didnt usually have...

...and...the merchant ships sailed in convoys; that means that when the threat was over, their friends could pick them up...

[MrFancypants]

The Scharnhorst picked up survivors from merchantships? Well, maybe if they encountered single ships in the Atlantic, but I doubt that they'd do that while attacking convoy.
Lifeboats don't help very much if someone shoots at you with 11" guns. And even if you manage to find one that still works and let it to water you will probably starve or freeze to death. When a convoy was attacked it usually scattered into all possible directions to make it more difficult for the attacker to get all of them.