The two worries I always have about using myself as a body (especially if I don't have fireform) is that if there is lag, the fallen will most likely kill me. It always sucks to either lose a game because of lag, or just quit the game because the lag is unplayable. It only takes one hickup when you're running around like that. The other worry is that a good player will see what you are doing, and train EVERYTHING on you. That's definitely more punishment than even a shielded wizard can take. The reason I didn't really talk about fireform was because usually the game is decided by that point, and I was just covering a level one start. Once I get firefists, I usually switch to a spitfire/firefist combo. I put up flame minions if i see locusts, but that's rare. The firefists have enough hitpoints that the fallen sort of lose effectiveness (plus they're migrating to either trolls or taurocks).

I completely agree that critical mass of spitfires is fantastic. The problem with a crtical mass of spitfires against charnel is that it will be lots of flying versus lots of ranged. That's not a good matchup, and add to that the range of attacks. The fallen get at least one free round against the spitfires before they are even in range. Now, if I manage to obliterate the line of fallen, then I pump the spitfires. But in general, if three or more fallen are standing, I don't pump spitfires.

Just my 2 cents:
I was beaten very badly by _-_- I got to say, though, it was just one game so you can't really reach a conclusion. I'm quite satisfied that if you don't know what's coming and create a general army, you'll be toast in no time. But I'm sure that with better preparation you can do better. This remains to be seen.

Yes, running into charnel without a proper army prepared has always meant instant death for me too.

Just beat Mm-_- with charnel level 3 vs me using james level 3.

Secret. Sped up taurocks own. They'll run right into the enemy army taking ALL the flak, your gargs annihilate the tightly packed army, and all is well. As long as you heal your taurocks(not hard, they have huge def), they'll continues to be a meat shield and medirochre ranged killer. Once you get flummoxes you can do seirous damage along with gargs, and ikaurses own.

ensnoll, you and me. NOW!!!!! You have no idea how wrong you are about Charnel, this I will prove once I kill you. Are you on right now? I'm too lazy to go check the lobby. Excilus, I never played Nightmare and my fallen didn;t atatck your Gargoyles. Why don't you try me in Ferry with the Level 3 start

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"What an unutterably lovely moment... Pyro is destroyed"
-Charnel, the one true God (of course)

[This message has been edited by Mm-_- (edited 03-17-2001).]

guys cant you see how good charnel is???
all his units heal when attack thats the best thing!!!

rofl seifer, NO IT ISN'T.

I think Charnel is too good. Look at MM. He wont shut up about Charnel and how you cant beat him when he is Charnel at lvl. 1 games. The best chance I have had against Charnel before is with Pyro though so I think he has the best chance out of all the gods to defeat Charnel. I played in a 2on2 once against Excilus and he was Charnel of course and I was Pyro and before my partner came in we had a battle and we killed off both of our armies I think he had 2 Fallen left and that was it but then my partner comes in and saves me.
I usually play as Persephone and Stratos though and Stratos is too weak right now to defeat Charnel and Persephone always dies to Charnel air. I can take any Charnel players ground force cause I am heavy on Druids and Lifeshield so Fallen and Scythes are nothing for me but Locusts are very big problem for Persephone. I try going Rangers but Charnel makes Scythes to kill my Rangers in few seconds and then I try going Shrikes to kill Locusts cause they got the best chance but then he goes Fallen again and my Druids die too quick to the Locusts to get in to kill the Fallen so that means by Shrikes will lose to Locusts.
With Pyro you can do so much more since Fireball knocks out lots of Spitfires so it is easier with Pyro than Perseph9one. But I just played Ensoll in 4 plaeyer free for all on Hidden Valley he was Pyro and my custom is all Persephone in the beginning and then Reanimate Dead and after that its all Charnel. It was really fun but I won the whole thing. Ensoll quit in the middle of it after he saw my new force that I got after desecrating one of the players cause I had Warmongers by that time but didnt have to make any yet. Before all of that I was really kicking everyons ass with Persephone especially Ensoll though because he was Pyro and Pyro cant handle the Lifeshield. I think Ensoll tried everything. First time I met him at the middle he had a little bit of everything cause I think he thought I had Charnel lvl. 1. I just went Druids and Shrikes cause thats all you need against Pyro and I really beat him down on that first battle. Sent in Druids to draw all of his fire and then orderdred them over to his Flame Minions then I had the Shrikes attack his Spitfires and his Cogs were just going around chasing stuff being stupid and by the time I got rid of his Flame Minions I moved the Druids away from the Cogs so they wouldnt get killed by steam and then just had the Shrikes finish off the Cogs. He only had a few Spitfires cause like I said he probably expected me to have a bunch of Charnel Fallen. That was really the only good battle I remembered cause the rest of the FFA every single person was fighting so the battles were too messy to remember it all.
Anyway it was a fun game but the point is Persephone can take Pyro anyday but Pyro has the best chance at beating Charnel out of anyone but Charnel can take out Persephone very fast if he goes all Locusts and 1 or 2 Fallen or 1 or 2 Scythes. I still think Charnel lvl. 1 is too good.

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Glooommy days....

I mean tto say that my custom was all Persephone first and then Reanimate Dead and after that its all Pyro. Sorry I accidenlty said all Charnel after Reanmiate Dead hehehehe.

I lost that match with Storm at the first fight. I quit because I was behind two or three levels, and had a dozen souls to your 24+. I built my army to counter Charnel, not Persephone (even though I knew you were using Persephone). The only way pyro can deal with Gabey's little Shrike business is to really pump the flame minions. This is fine if it's just against persephone, but any other fight and you'll lose very fast.

I agree that Charnel is still too powerful. My posts were just describing what I do when I play against Charnel, not how to beat Charnel.

One thing I've noticed over the past few days is that Pyro is very tough to play in FFA. His units just don't hold up long enough in a 3 or 4 way fight. With Pyro, you really have to customize your army depending on what god you're fighting. It isn't really feasible if you end up fighting Persephone first, and then run into James immediately afterwards. Whereas Charnel can use Fallen and Persephone can use the Shrike business, Pyro really doesn't have a universal army. I don't think Pyro needs to be changed, just know that a Pyro start is really at a disadvantage in FFA games.