Listen closely...

[Mm-_-]

Forgot to mention something... With combined gods, you can defeat Charnel I promise you. There has to be one strategy with combined gods that does it. I've discovered a great combination with Stratos and Charnel and Incarnate has contributed many ideas to it as well. Play us if you want to see it, but know that it requires a Level 4 start at minimum.

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"What an unutterably lovely moment... Pyro is destroyed"
-Charnel, the one true God (of course)

[Mm-_-]

Harry V: It all depends on combinations (meelee/range/air and how many of each)... Their skill is also a big factor but not as big as combos as long as the player is not a moron and has some skill at least. Pyro can beat Charnel Level 1 if the Pyro Player is more experienced and em.. combinations taken into account. If both players were good, I'd say the Charnel player would have an 80%-90% chance of victory. If both players are extremely skilled experts, the chances that the Charnel player would win are 90%-100%.

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"What an unutterably lovely moment... Pyro is destroyed"
-Charnel, the one true God (of course)

[Lovidican]

As I stated earlier, you cannot judge the balance of the game by the match between you and Choopy. You may be more skilled, or have a better connection/system. Or you may have gotten lucky (yes it can happen twice). Don't get me wrong, I'm sure your a kickass player, you just come to your conclusions too quickly. Play pyro level one as much as you have played charnel and see what works.

And if Shiny were GOD, they would not be making patch three would they? How much you want to bet though, that they have played the game much more than you, hm?

And you did say he was unbeatable, how can someone win if they cannot get passed level one? Your first sentence by the way (Pyro Cannot beat Charnel) says charnel is unbeatable with pyro. and your last sentence (...anyone can take james after all) says the james can be defeated by anyone... You also said that spitfires hurt cogs... pretty sure they only harm enemy units.

P.S. I don't mind it when someone says that I am wrong about many things (actually it helps me learn new things), unless they don't PROVE to me why I'm wrong. Other than cogs having more hp (which is trivial really) You merely stated that some of the things I was saying were old; does that make them untrue? Describe your battle with Choopy, and tell me which part makes me wrong (please don't say it's just because you won).



[This message has been edited by Lovidican (edited 03-16-2001).]

[Mm-_-]

Damn, you're an idiot huh? I said Charnel was unbeatable by Pyro and then I explained IF so-so circumstances were to take place. Just trying to start a flame war? Well I won't participate

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"What an unutterably lovely moment... Pyro is destroyed"
-Charnel, the one true God (of course)

[Lovidican]

I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm sure that is clear to anyone that has actually read my messages. I put way too much info for them just to be used as flames.

And I am not the one calling you an idiot. I despise flames...something you would know had you read my posts in detail. I just stated my opinion and said where you were wrong (much like you did). If you don't want to continue the argument, just say so. Don't go insulting me for no reason, because this only shows the weakness of your position. Again you jump to conlusion too fast.

[ensoll]

I'm not sure why I'm getting involved in this, but oh well. I've had this game since launch, and have played online every night. I've always played pyro. The best pyro players i've ever seen are JohnyFire, Viperman, and myself. I haven't seen either of them forever (Viperman works for shiny???), so I'll go ahead and say that I'm the pyro equivalent of MM and Charnel. Man this is long.

First off, Cogs being damaged by spitfires is determined by whether friendly fire is enabled or not. With cogs, friendly fire kind of a mixed bag (how fast do you want them to explode? and how fast do you want your firefists to lose health?). If I know that I'm going to be fighting fallen, I like team damage off, because there is a better chance of my cogs exploding on the fallen. Granted, the steam doesn't do much damage, but every bit of damage helps.

Personally, Charnel gives me the most trouble when the enemy uses fallen/scythes. Locusts have always been easier for me to deal with than scythes. It's easier to hit the locusts with a fireball (less chance of it exploding on the back of a cog). If the locusts don't target me specifically, then they're not really being used effectively. If the wizard does target the locusts on me, it's easier to get a lot of locusts with one fireball (they clump together as i run around).

The strategy of using yourself as a damage sponge against charnel is SUICIDE against someone of my skill level (even if it isn't charnel, it's still a good way to get killed). Charnel's ability to almost always hit (locusts and fallen) and the mana drain of locusts makes using your wizard as a sponge a bad idea. Granted, it helps keep damage off your units (a much needed thing for pyro), but you will probably die, and if you die, you lose the game. Even for players that aren't as good as me, if it's charnel, i don't run in and soak up the first wave of attacks. That's just too big a risk to take, given that there are other options.

A side not here from coping strategies. The one thing that seems underused by Charnel starts these days is scythes. Scythes are incredibly effective against pyro, but the most i ever see are one or two. Instead of using the fallen swarm/locusts targeting the wizard. It seems more practical to do fallen swarm/scythes targeting the wizard/manahoars. But I don't play charnel, so maybe there is a reason I don't see more scythes lined up against me. It's just that scythes always seem to give me more trouble than locusts.

Obviously, the most important aspect of beating a Charnel start is successfully killing the critical mass of fallen. Fireball is not effective against fallen, because they are usually spread out so that at most you would only hit two fallen. Instead, it's better to save the fireball for killing the "other" units (scythes or locusts). I do believe that Charnel is very difficult for Pyro to beat (assuming the skill level of the opponents is near equal). But, I have figured out ways of dealing with it. I don't win all my games against charnel, but it does let me win some.

One of the big factors is the starting soul count. I'm not talking about how many you start with at the very beginning, but how many each side will have by the time they fight. The lower the soul count, the better shape pyro is in, because it's tougher to get that critical mass of fallen up, and still have enough of the chosen support unit (scythes/locusts).

Low soul count maps I won't talk about too much, but I will comment (haven't i already talked enough?). The balance of units i like to use minimizes flame minions (unless i SEE a lot of locusts). I tend to favor cogs, and have a 2 less spitfires than cogs. This often means only one flame minion, but they're not that effective in low numbers anyway. If I end up not winning the first initial clash, i grab my souls and try to drop back out of the fallens range to rebuild. At this point i generally keep the same balance (unless i see a lot of scythes, at which point i'll up the number of spitfires i use). If i win the engagement, i pump spitfires, because they are good wizard killers, deal splash damage, and deal good damage.

Higher soul count games are where pyro really loses the ability to cope with charnel. More fallen equals more damage, and less time to get your cogs into the fallen lines. I generally use the same tactics, but go a little heavier on spitfires for the first fight. The spitfires die instantly, yes, but their death animation is VERY long (coupled with falling to the ground). This means that the fallen will continue to attack the spitfire until it's death animation is completed (which is long after the spitfire was alive). That's one of the ways I get my cogs up next to the fallen. The other trick is to not have the cogs at the forefront of the army (this is a lot of peoples problem, I think). The cogs are what will win you the fight, and the trick is getting them to a point where they are effective. If they are the pride and joy of your army, why would you ever put them in the front? Instead of using formations, i just summon everything and have it follow me, and I let the units base speed determine how quickly they get into the fight. I usually have 2 or 3 flame minions in my army. The flame minions and spitfires are in front, so they take the first 1.5-2 rounds of attacks from the fallen. At this point, the spitfires shot once at the scythes/locusts and died, I've fireballed the minority unit (locust or scythe), the flame minions are still alive, and the cogs are running towards the fallen. At this point I usually grab the spitfires souls and resummon cogs or spitfires. Then i wade into the fallen and grab the cog souls and resummon them (about now, in a fast exp game, is when i get fireform). I just rinse and repeat this until i lose, or level 3 (whichever comes first). At level 3, it completely depends on what the custom is using.

That may not have made much sense, but it's how I open against Charnel. General rule of thumb: always fireball the minority unit in the beginning, not the fallen. That just gives you one less unit type to worry about for a second. Flame minions exist solely to soak up damage. Spitfires and fireball should be used to handle locusts. I find it easier to beat charnel when the wizard puts the fallen in line formation. I guess the logic is that the fallen aren't as easy to fireball, but it's also harder to hit the cogs, and easier for me to retrieve my souls. The most dangerous formations for me are either wedge formation, or semi-circle formation. I can type more, but I have a feeling no one is going to actually read this anyway. And no, i haven't played MM, or if i have, it was when he was still harkonnen. Hopefully this will help someone, or at least give people some ideas.

[Malleus]

Ensoll, I disagree. Scythes can cut down the proles of Pyro quickly, but with multiple spitfires getting scythes in a cone of fire, scythes dont last long at all.

Also, using Flame Minions as damage sponges seems risky at best. Sped up scythes are often at the forefront of a Charnel wizard's army, and they can cut down Flame Minions like grain (no pun intended). Even if scythes are killed by your spitfires, the fallen and locusts will make very quick work of your spitfires, and your cogs (which will probably be flanking) will arrive too late to support your other creatures.

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-Malleus-MTK-
Disciple of Pyro
"Victory for the Proletariat!"

[This message has been edited by Malleus (edited 03-16-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Malleus (edited 03-16-2001).]

[ensoll]

Fallen are definitely the most dangerous unit at Charnel's start. But EVERY charnel player builds tons of them, and that's really why charnel is tough to beat.

My reasoning for putting the flame minions in front is to soak up damage from the fallen, not the scythes. My fireball and spitfires should deal with the scythes. It doesn't always work, and I don't always use it, but it is a better alternative than putting myself in front of the scythes and fallen.

I have a bigger problem with charnel when the player uses two of his units instead of three. Fallen, obviously, and then either scythes or locusts. If they use 3 of the units, then they are lowering their number of fallen, which make charnel easier to deal with.

In terms of my units dying, my philosphy is, "if they aren't dying, they aren't fighting." I build spitfires in the beginning specifically to die, same as the flame minions. The cogs are really the only unit I NEED to keep alive. The cogs are what are going to kill the fallen, the fireball, spitfires and flame minions are just designed to soak up some damage and provide some cover for the cogs.

Another tactic I sometimes use is to save one or two souls, and bust through the enemy lines and build cogs right next to the fallen. But that's pretty risky, and I only do it if I'm very sure I won't die.

A big part of my playing style with Pyro is expecting my units to die. I know that certain units are expendable in my army, just like a good charnel player knows that the scythes are going in there to die quickly. Against Persephone, my key unit is the flame minion, the spitfires are expendable (especially if friendly fire is on). I'm not saying that this is THE way to play pyro, and certainly not a way to always beat charnel, it's just how I play. One of the biggest tricks to pyro is knowing how to effectively resummon an army every minute.

[Lovidican]

ensoll: Good post. I agree with your ideas (mostly). When I said that you use your wizard up front I meant with a shield and while trying to avoid the damage as best as you can. I agree this is risky but if done properly, it is seriously worth it.

You also said that the tide tends to turn against pyro as the soul count increases. I don't think this is the case. Every god has a unit designed to be mass produced incase of excess souls. James-Gargoyle, Persephony-shrieks, stratos(don't really know ), Charnel-fallen (locust might be one too), and Pyro has spitfires. Spitfires deal insane amounts of damage when they reach really large groups (or at least that's been my experience). Just direct damage away from them.

Other than this, I agree with what you said and I like the tactic of using the spitfire's long death animation to your advantage, I'm sure it can be applied to other units too.

Malleus: "Scyths.....cut down Flame Minions like grain (no pun intended)"....Ya right, that pun was SO intended j/k


[This message has been edited by Lovidican (edited 03-16-2001).]

[ensoll]

The two worries I always have about using myself as a body (especially if I don't have fireform) is that if there is lag, the fallen will most likely kill me. It always sucks to either lose a game because of lag, or just quit the game because the lag is unplayable. It only takes one hickup when you're running around like that. The other worry is that a good player will see what you are doing, and train EVERYTHING on you. That's definitely more punishment than even a shielded wizard can take. The reason I didn't really talk about fireform was because usually the game is decided by that point, and I was just covering a level one start. Once I get firefists, I usually switch to a spitfire/firefist combo. I put up flame minions if i see locusts, but that's rare. The firefists have enough hitpoints that the fallen sort of lose effectiveness (plus they're migrating to either trolls or taurocks).

I completely agree that critical mass of spitfires is fantastic. The problem with a crtical mass of spitfires against charnel is that it will be lots of flying versus lots of ranged. That's not a good matchup, and add to that the range of attacks. The fallen get at least one free round against the spitfires before they are even in range. Now, if I manage to obliterate the line of fallen, then I pump the spitfires. But in general, if three or more fallen are standing, I don't pump spitfires.