FileFront Forums - Project Natal (Future of Motion Sensing)

Quote:

Originally Posted by >Omen< (Post 4934434)

LOL, funny how when you get and are shown responses that put the direction console playing is headed in an accurate vs your naive point of view, you suddenly get your panties in a bunch and start spewing garbage like PC elitists feeling reamed I take it you meant. You also take some of what I say out of context when you assume I meant motion sensing taking over PC games. I was obviously talking more about the type of games and their content.

I clearly gave valid reasons for concern, one of the primary of which was PC ports being dumbed down to simpler Wii-like gameplay. That does not in and of itself imply I mean PC players opting to use the motion sensing features the console versions have, nor does it even mean the PC ports will have such a feature. It means there's a likely possibility the PC ports will have less nuances, like I said, because that's how most motion sensing games are made. It doesn't mean those playing it on PC are going to want to play them without controllers, but it may very well mean the avid players, the ones you mock as butt reamed elitists merely for wanting a decent challenge and complexity to their games (esp if they're going to shell out $50) will be very upset about it, and understandably.

You need to step away from your "Gee whiz, that's cool" child-like mentality for just a few seconds and get a grip on what's happening in the gaming industry bud if you don't think there's already been drastic changes in gaming because of tech like the Wii. Anytime you see a console like the Wii, that merely for it's gimmicky little magical wand transforms the face of gaming into the largest selling platform catering to anyone that wants to play, vs those whom have the patience to learn how to play the games that are for what you call elitists, you have a drastic change in the face of gaming. Obviously MS saw that and is now trying to cash in on the same market strategy.

It reminds me of how the sport of stunt kiting changed drastically when people all over started labeling all of them as inconsiderate, wreckless maniacs over a few incidents where a small percentage of them got careless with their power kites and became a danger to themselves and others. What followed was a trend of ultralight kites being made that people started "flying" indoors via throwing them up and tugging on them, as if that's the same thing as feeling the wind literally drag you along the ground at times. It basically became a gay sport, literally, and that's what I see happening with the Wii. It's turning off "elite" gamers and turning on those whom are too bothered to actually learn how to play a game with real challenge.

You should pay more attention to the part where you said some might actually like how everything is going concerning the direction they're taking motion sensing bud, because that's a good indication we have valid reasons to be concerned. This IMO is worse than what AL and Tipper Gore and Jack Thompson were trying to do with gaming IMO, because it's a more powerful tool against the hardcore games that are slowly fading away.

I'll end by saying I'm not totally opposed to motion sensing if it's used with limitations and in conjunction with a controller that still gives you a lot of control options. That is why I mentioned the Fusion. It's still what I consider to be the most advanced tech of it's kind, because it combines both the simplicity of hand controlled vs moused or toggled aiming, shielding, etc, and it does so with the precision of ultrasonic motion sensing and without throwing away the complexity of control buttons for all those nuances I spoke of.

What MS is doing with the Natal is far more simple than even what Nintendo is doing with the Wii though, so it's a step even deeper into the cartoon game abyss, as if to say "Who cares if no one makes hardcore games anymore. We'll make millions off all the moms, pops, grandmas, grandpas, and little sister Sally. Hell, we might even make a few games Rover can play." This makes me remember the fuss in the gaming community when Ubi announced they wouldn't be making anymore "hardcore" games, only this is a bigger concern by far.

In short, be careful what you wish for, or you may have options like Mario Shops for a Tutu vs Twighlight Princess: Queen for a Day.

I don't see anything accurate about it... Controllers are still going to be around for years to come.

lol, kinda like how PC elitists "spew garbage" every day by saying biased things such as "playing with a mouse is better", that's pure biasm, some people absolutely hate playing with a mouse.

Really? Alls i heard was "Microsofts going to take over the gaming industry and everything will become MOTION SENSING", really not too many valid points and you seem to be the only person i've spoken to about this with this reaction.... And i go to aloooot of places on the internet.

lol, are you imlplying motion sensing is heading torwards the PC? Cause until i see motion adapting technology for the PC, that's still a LOOOOONG way off, lol, i bet you 100% you wont see a single game thats for Project natal head to any other thing.

Why must a game be complex? I do not understand that arguement at all, it's not like the price of PC gaming has changed within the last 10 years, half life 1 was simple as shit yet it went down in gaming history because it was fun and interesting, your logic is null because it falls into biasm AGAIN, AND it infers that such a thing is needed (which it's not).

lol, yea, ok, I NEED TO, you keep thinking that. This isn't the video game crash of 1983, so stop making this out to be some armageddon, i've seen much worse things happen and i've seen alot of good things happen, out of this, i can only see good things, lol don't think that the video game industry is full of global terrorists out to ruin the medium, because clearly microsoft cares deeply about it, as it's revolutionzed online gaming time and time again, and suddenly you think their out to destroy it, LOL. The quicker you realize that, the quicker you can stop posting OMFG HUGE POSTS. And to be honest, i could care less about PC gamings FUTURE, everyone knows it's still gonna keep getting titles. One of the main reasons people hate PC ports is because first of all they assume that because it's ported it's going to be shit and because they bitch about the controls, as long as it's not gamebreaking such as a glitch in a level or incompatibility, i don't really care, and ya know what, i even REMEMBER when the dreamcast and the PC clashed, it was the first cross platform multiplayer system where DC players could play PC players in some games online. You could also plug in a phone jack and play online through that on the Dreamcast. Starting to get it?

And if you consider "Microsoft" cashing in on the same market strategy... Wouldn't that also count the WII doing the same, exact, thing? The eye-toy was out long before the Wii was, and was concieved even LONGER before that (1999), so please, tell me, what arguement points do you have left? The face of gaming isn't going to get "ZOMG IT'S A NEW ERA", if anything it will just get blander and less competitive, because that's what i'm seeing now with all the multiplatform games (which i think is TOTAL BS, bring back the tons of exclusives).

Yea, well, the good thing about that is that consoles aren't killing people lol..... YET.

What?! The hell?!?! Are you TALKING ABOUT?! I've never seen a single person fly a kite "indoors", compared to the thousands i've seen outside elsewhere. What are you talking about? Seriously...

You keep worrying, i'll keep enjoying what they put out for what it's worth. (And btw, no one said you have to buy a game on release, their IS a thing called patience so you can wait for it to drop in price ya know, and you can tell if a game is worth trying based on reviews, thats what THOSE are for too ya know)

Ok, so you like it, how come i haven't heard people raving about it? Oh yea, because the majority probably neither care nor want it.

Right, i guess space/distance measurement, facial recognition, augmented reality, and voice recognition, plus high fidelity motion sensing is all in the wrong direction, we should go in this NEW direction. Jesus, i think this is going to bring forward the exclusives i've so dearly been wanting since the day these consoles came out and started going "Hey, lets share", it's total BS and i'm glad this is stepping in and taking action, because of everything required for it, i doubt their will be a single port (just like the eye toy and PSP games).

Please, what do you consider "Hardcore" lol, and your being prejudice again :/ Everyone calls the wii a family system and have tons of fun family related things to do on it, but yet theirs games like Madworld and House of the Dead: Overkill for it. You really don't look at the big picture of things do you?

Well, to end i'll just say this, i named the thread the "future of MOTION SENSING" for a reason, and well, i'm not WISHING for it, but i like what it's doing, will i buy it? Probably not, if i had the money to spare, would i buy it? Probably, why? Because it looks fun and innovative? But oh, right, because it doesn't have "hardcore" games i'm not going to buy it, so just forget everything i just said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billz1282 (Post 4934820)

There was no need for the pretentious sarcasm.

If you disagreed with my earlier response, all you had to do was say so.

LOL, I was not being sarcastic all, but rather agreeing with your point. I know text chat is not exactly conducive to always conveying what you mean without confusion, but you're really being overly defensive there guy.

There was nothing I said in my prior posts or that post for you to jump to that conclusion. In fact if you'd read what I've been saying you probably would have realized I was speaking literally, not sarcastically.

@bud,
I'm going to try to wrap up this debate with one response, because if nothing else, I really tire of your taking my words out of context (often after repeating what I actually said more than once) and struggling to read and respond to your marathon, unstructured sentences. You really should revisit basic English class. :rolleyes:

You don't see it as accurate because you continually fail to see and/or example what I am saying regarding this tech's potential effect on PC games. Where did I ever say there would be no more controllers for PC games, or even that motion sensing would take over? Get it through your head, I am talking specifically about games losing their challenge and complexity due to being designed for the average person being able to play them via tech like this, specifically PC ports. Is it THAT hard for you to understand that one simple point without twisting my words around?

This is not a debate over mouse vs gamepad or even PC vs console really. It's about control inputs vs motion recognition and more specifically how this tech totally abandons one to favor the simplicity of the other as well as the resulting tradeoffs. No wonder you start throwing labels around when debating bud. You're too busy venting old arguments which don't pertain to the subject that still have you uptight.

A LOT of places? Apparently you didn't even bother reading the many negative responses in that Xbox 360 Forum thread I linked to. All you heard was what you wanted to hear, as always. You don't see the obvious because you're too busy saying "Gee whiz, that's cool, can I have one"? It doesn't take a genius to see that with MS' money grubbing attitude about gaming, they are cashing in on how Nintendo approached gaming, and the huge profits it netted them. Spend some time on a Wii, then come back and tell me you like the future of this tech because you clearly don't see the huge negative potential here for avid gamers that actually like a real challenge.

OMG, the constant correcting of your inattentive reading. Bud, wake the heck up and READ what I'm saying for a change. I said more than once, I was talking about how it could easily change the content of gameplay in PC ports, NOT that motion sensing would take over PC gaming. Are you seriously that stricken with ADHD? Sure the other could happen eventually, but I'll tackle one possibility at a time, rather than jumping to the drastic conclusions you're implying I'm referring to, despite my words making it clear what I meant.

(Facepalm) Why does a game have to be complex? Are you serious? You sound like a 5 yr old that doesn't want his Wii taken away. Did I not give several valid reasons why taking away certain nuances would dumb games down too much for avid players? Do you seriously want to play a fighter where the master has geriatric speed, or a racer where gas and brake are on or off, no in between? The problem would be even worse with shooters, God forbid they use the tech in that genre. Video games aren't just something to make mass money on for mere casual entertainment anyone can enjoy, they've always been about serious challenge too. They need to be made to serve a wide spectrum of skill levels, and these type games only serve the lower skill end of that spectrum. Like I said, if you don't understand that, spend some time playing Wii games, and you'll see what you're in for. And if by chance you still don't understand, then you probably don't have a lot of gaming skill.

I noticed in your saying "out of this, i can only see good things", you didn't so much as give ONE example. I offered one in the Fusion controller, and I also mentioned why. Because it merely uses motion sensing for aim, look and shield/melee, vs using motion sensing entirely and by doing so, dumbing down that complexity you see fit to do without. I guess that pretty much tells why you don't give any examples, you actually see it as holistically good, with no negatives. I'll give another positive I've seen with motion sensing, TrackIR, it's really opened up the driving and surveying ability and realism in many games. Again though, that is merely using motion sensing for look, not using it entirely, which obviously from those MS demo clips has serious tradeoffs.

LOL, did I not USE the Wii as an example of what MS is now planning? It doesn't matter so much who copies who, or where the idea came from as whether or not the tech influences gaming enough to change it's direction, IMO for the worse. The Wii is the largest selling platform now due to the mere feature of the Wiimote and it's motion sensing. That means gaming can head just about any direction as long as you throw a big enough control gimmick at the public. All over avid gamers have sworn off the Wii for it's lack of hardcore titles and easy gameplay, yet you seem to be oblivious to this. Worse yet, the Wii is now getting exclusives like Indiana Jones and the Staff of Kings and Dead Space Extraction, genres they aren't even good at making, and titles that SHOULD have come out on PC.

Another facepalm, once again you managed to entirely miss my point. And the ironic thing is, I doubt there have been more fatalities with stunt kites than there have with crazy and/or obsessed gamers. I'd reiterate the point I was actually TRYING to make, but I already have a few times. :rolleyes:

I explained the way stunt kiting changed in detail, and it's no joke. People actually started making ultralight kites that they would just throw up in the air and tug on them to keep them aloft, vs flying them in the wind outdoors. They even have competitions like that, very gay. Stunt kiting was born in places like Hawaii, where strong, steady coastal winds offer plenty of pull on the kite. It was a sad day when I went to the local annual kite festival and saw how the sport changed, so I quickly lost interest.

Like I said, there's reason for concern, and your own words convey that by admitting many DON'T like where gaming is going. I also never buy games via pre order or full price, quite the opposite. There was simply no reason for you to assume I would not very frugally spend my money via caution given what I've been saying. I also read between the lines concerning reviews. You have to know when it's more truth than BS, and also pay attention to the customer reviews some, esp regarding bugs and lack of patch support.

Yet another facepalm. Obviously you missed the part where I said WHY the Fusion is not selling well, because it's made 3rd party and games have to be written for it. Do you not understand how much control both MS and Sony have over what games are written for their platforms and esp, what devices can be used with them? The Fusion has superior tech. Ultrasonic motion tracking is much more precise than mere RF. I also feel it;'s superior in that it can both simplify and speed up look, aim and shile/melee moves, WITHOUT losing subtle control nuances elsewhere.

How quickly you fall in love with the underlying tech talk the manufacturers use (much like you do with game engines) without noticing how it translates on the surface. You are pretty much conveying only one half of what Robbie Bach, pres of MS' E&D said in his video clip on that site. Sure there's sophisticated underlying tech, but the end goal is making things simple for the average person, just like he said. IMO, TOO simple. It's bad enough when games are made simple for the average gamer, but when you make games simple for the average random person, you get dumb on top of dumb. Hey, maybe they should make a Dumb and Dumber game, with Robbie Bach and Steve Balmer playing the lead roles. LOL

Do you really need be told what a hardcore game is? To give an example, when Ubisoft made that statement, it was during production of Far Cry 2. Many assumed from what they were saying it meant no more pure realistic shooters like the Rainbow series, and possibly no more shooters at all, unless heavily tainted with RPG and/or very arcade-like gameplay. You give very few examples of action games on the Wii, it's really not a platform for sophisticated shooter games. The ones they've tried have been buggy as hell. Just due to the type of people the Wii appeals to, it's title selection will likely be dominated by family games. That's always been Nintendo's bread and butter, I doubt they'll want to stray from that cash cow too far. Nintendo's Wii is being used as a role model marketing philosophy, much like many corproations are following Wal-Mart's corporate mentality. It's all about da money!!!

LOL, kinda scratching my head over that summary paragraph bud. You started out raving all over this tech like it's a must have. Now you say you're not wishing for motion sensing and probably won't buy it before you even know what it will end up costing. Fun and innovative on the surface may be appealing to the average person naive about gaming, but to avid gamers, those demo clips really do show how much of the subtle nuance and challenge is lost. I'm not clear on whether that bit about hardcore was pure sarcasm on your part though. It comes down to whether you want a conversation piece that anyone can enjoy, or something you'll come back to for the challenge it offers. Natal looks so far to lack the latter. I'm sure if they really wanted to they COULD offer for instance everything from very slow to very fast sparring speeds on the fighter game they showed, but then the bulk of their audience would probably start feeling too intimidated by it and they're not likely to want to lose all that milk from their cows.