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US education BBC News - US 'in denial' over poor maths standards How did it get worse???? Wtf? Well, don't worry, I'm sure Common Core will fix everything. /ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss |
Re: US education THIS IS MAH TURF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: Well, was it really not obvious to anyone paying attention? Denial! Hah! More like total delusion. |
Re: US education I like to think most know the US is pretty shit when it comes to education, but I didn't realize it was actually continuing to decline. I just kind of....naively assumed that lawmakers/educators/parents/whoever would have started doing something about it by now. This has been the state of affairs for decades. |
Re: US education Nope. The most anyone has really done is a band-aid effect. Put in new tests and new standards that make things appear to be improving while subtly adding to the confusion and degradation of the national standard of education. |
Re: US education It hurts my brain. |
Re: US education Welcome to the club :D It hurts my soul...and I don't even have one. |
Re: US education I have 2 words: Common Core. It is an absolute abomination, and very likely the cause of most math issues. :cort: |
Re: US education Why would it have got better? That's not the natural trend of things that have been going down the pan unless an outside force imposes change on them. There's almost always going to be some variance in any system. Indeed any system where all the pieces react in the same way is screwed when the environment changes - they do not persist. To a large extent how adaptable you are is a function of how well you can accomodate that variance, that diversity. Selection pressures are what keep a lid on all that, winnowing out the things that don't make sense. In their absence the more expensive strategies that would cope with selection pressures become maladaptive and are overtaken by cheaper strategies. The problem with education, however you set it up, is that its selection pressure is pleasing government, not educating the youth. And governments selection pressure is getting voted into power, not providing for the people. And why's that? Well, one could say that in government your real selection pressure is your vote - but if we look at voting as an economy, then the costs to enter the market, and the fact that a very few 'companies' control most of the vote market, imply that it's not going to be particularly competitive. Generally if a company controls more than 40% of the market in anything it's a bad sign. I see basically two ways to fix education: • Align its selection pressures with education. (Get government out of the loop - enhance feedback between industry, science, and education - allow people to exercise some degree of economic control over education as their weapon.) • Make politics make more sense. (Eliminate party politics. Restructure the political system, etc.) I predict neither of these is going to happen. Fortunately, there is a third option: • Do it yourselves. This is the hard option, at the moment. But the leverage that government has is primarily through two things: • Accreditation. • Resources. While we might question whether people have the resources to educate their kids themselves, it would be a dramatic weakening of the government's stranglehold of education if HR procedures could accurately pick out people who have skills in an area. And I think that's coming, people are becoming more familiar with using powerful datasets and networking their information together. It's not clear to me that having a qualification actually yields much information, it's just what people go off when they don't have work history and the like to vouch for someone. A low pass filter: If they don't have this we're not even going to look at them. The resources problem is perhaps harder. But is it as critical? My parents home-educated me, and they're not particularly wealthy. And can it be patched by other means? If you cease to need teachers to teach to exam specs, then it becomes a lot more practical to set up with you and your five mates to teach your kids together. As with a lot of things, I think long term the answer is going to be - 'If you want something done right, do it yourself.' |
Re: US education All is well and good until Junior High. But come Junior High, when most subjects are "somewhat" (emphasis on the quotes) serious and the students begin to think more, you find that a lot of subjects are being taught badly. I was forced to stay through 6 years of school Math, only to find out that I hadn't learned much. People who could afford private tutors, sure, they learned Math. But I didn't. Perhaps it was partly my fault, but most public school teachers are not incredibly good because other people had difficulty understanding Math too. In twelve years I have only had two teachers who were good at their jobs and taught me a lot. My current classes also have good and respectable professors that make me enjoy the lesson and learn stuff. Also, Nemmerle, you're very wise and intelligent, I wish to lick your brain. (and that is something someone in my environment once said, I have taken to using it ever since) |
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I just have too much confidence in humanity I guess. I expect them to be responsible and shit, even when it's for stuff that doesn't directly affect them. I suppose that makes me a bit naive. And DIY is hard as hell at times. Especially the so called hidden curriculum: how to interact with authority and peers (and deal with bullshit). Home school can make that difficult sometimes |
Re: US education My view of the current system. "Oh, you like math? Use these formuli in a non applicable way! USE THEM!!!" And I'm picturing the students brain on an ice cream cone, melting off and splaying on the floor. And really, who wants to clean up that mess? I can't blame kids for having the interest for learning forced out of them, I was one of those kids for most of my schooling. If what we were studying could and would be applied in a meaningful way, I'll say that my grades would have skyrocketed and probably most of the class's, too. |
Re: US education I've had the same experience. The older and slightly wiser me sees that it becomes useful eventually (for those who go into math related jobs anyway), which is probably where policy makers get their ideas: from the perspective of adults. But as a little tike, even if you see it, it's damn near impossible to motivate yourself for something so far in the future. It seems those in charge of education aren't really thinking from the perspective of kids, which they definitely need to if they're going to fix the education system. Find out what works for them and implement it rather than focus almost solely on standardized exams. |
Re: US education I blame the parents. The current generation of students got the really shitty deal. Previous generations have ruined near everything for their children, and they don't seem to give any fucks when it comes to the consequences. But this isn't really any different then the other problems America is facing. Old people screwing over young people, and neither of them willing to take action to fix things. MY GRADE 8 MATH TEACHER ABUSED ME. |
Re: US education :( What's fun is that the current gen will probably do it to the next |
Re: US education I see children going to school in cotton jumpsuits, in bubbles. With tablets at the desks with everything blocked... |
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Quite a big jump if you ask me, from acting like electronics were agents of Satan to encouraging students to use them. |
Re: US education Wait... the US has an education system?! |
Re: US education Then it goes the other way in uni. At least for some professors, especially sociology. The bastards keep doing studies that show such devices in the classroom lead to lower grades, so they ban them in their own. Curse them! How am I supposed to browse the internet all class without my computer!? Oh wait |
Re: US education One of the big problems I have with maths is that there is a small set of things that you need to have memorised to be able to do higher level maths. The addition and multiplication tables spring to mind. You can use a calculator for it but it's a poor patch. If you just want to multiply two numbers together, it's fine - but if you want to... anything above basis algebra... you can't do that higher level reasoning well if you've constantly got to stop and refer to the calculator. But memorising most of the formula themselves is largely pointless other than that it occur in the normal process of using them. They either arise directly from understanding what something is - and can thus be derived with no real effort on the rare occasion that one needs them - or they don't form foundational concepts to further study. Or they do form foundational concepts but are only likely to be of use to someone going into a specialist area to which that particular formula is important. I think maths has gone wrong in trying to take the extreme on both those points. One group said, "People need to understand what they're dealing with and then it becomes easy" and they were right. Another group said "People need to remember stuff" and they were also right. However, what needs to be understood and what needs to be remembered are different things. Memorise foundational concepts at a low level that are needed to support higher level abstractions - once the basic abstraction step at the low level is understood. Understand higher level abstractions that are required less often, and thus gain creative freedom based on the low level. # Then of course there are the more general flaws in the education system: A lack of relevance, a lack of reward for being wrong ( - the basis of all original discovery and learning: "That's.... odd...." ) the arbitrary and vicious rules, the lack of shared joy in learning. ... The frequently terrible, verging on non-existent, parenting.... |
Re: US education I lucked out at my highschool. After algebra, no more calculators allowed on quizes and exams. You don't need one for the basics of calc and stats, especially if you're clever in making the test questions. Too many students in previous years just shoved it into their magic math machine and had no idea what they were doing. I remember most of it just fine because I had to learn why it works the way it works. |
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No? Just repeat this problem until you get it? Oh... But just FYI, I do happen to still think math is an exciting and invigorating subject and when I started getting good at it and learning to prove equations, often without the help of a piece of paper or pencil, it's one of the most intellectually stimulating things you can do in an afternoon. Sadly, you have to put up with a ton of shit before you get to the coursework or academic/professional level that even mentions that kind of work, let alone encourages it. Quote:
DIY is very rewarding, the problem is just managing to find an employer who either agrees with your point of view or translating your skills into the HR friendly language. Most people in this day and age when asking about your skills end up reacting like so: "Hey, did you major in Computer Science?" "Yes." "Oh, I see, you must be a competent programmer and can surely come up with creative solutions to difficult problems." "Hey, did you major in Computer Science?" "No, in fact I've only had a few college courses. I mainly just learned programming on my own and experimented with my own projects to see what I could do." "Whoa...what? Are you some kinda idiot? I'm not letting you anywhere near a computer! SECURITY!" :beer: |
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No. Why? I didn't attend University, so I don't have that fancy paper. *calls Security* |
Re: US education I thought America was the place where world history starts at the Border at Canada and move all the way down to the border of Mexico. |
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It's the difference between an employer interviewing 300 people and watching each of them perform the task they're applying for (which would take too long) or asking to see their creds which takes a total of like... five seconds. |
Re: US education Algebra is one of the primary reasons students drop out of school, and they really have no choice. 1. There is NO WAY a letter can be a number. It simply doesn't work. 2. Algebra is not even used in real life unless you somehow become a rocket scientist. 99% of careers never use anything past basic multiplication and division, so there is NO reason to require algebra for graduating. And furthermore, this requirement didn't come round until the last few decades. During the 50s and 60s, more people were graduating from high school, so more people went to college, and graduated, so more were able to find successful careers. Why? Because algebra was never a requirement. 3. Getting a GED does not require algebra, but a GED also will not give you any college scholarships. This means that is you want to have ANY hope of going to college, you will need to sink yourself into thousands upon thousands of student loans that you will never be able to pay. So even if you do have a GED, you are still stuck where you are, with no hope for a future. So why bother? Algebra has single-handedly ruined the education system. It needs to be returned to optional status, and stay that way. If you do that, you will see the drop out rate return to only 10% or so. Being able to graduate from high school, much more people will be able to get college scholarships, and therefore able to get successful jobs, and successful careers. Many more people will have a hope for a good future, and be able to achieve a productive life where they will only need to focus on being good parents. How else do you fix this? Instead of generic, basic education, you need to start training for the career you want. On the job training programs are a much faster way of learning, much more successful, and you get an actual job when you finish. At least there is an alternative, and one I very highly suggest you do. I highly suggest you join the military anyway, but if you cannot get a college scholarship after graduation, or you cannot graduate in the first place, then you should go ahead and join the military right now. You get real on the job training, real world experience, and employers specifically look for that because military service shows you are dependable and trustworthy, and you are giving back to your country. And military does have in service schooling so you can earn your degree while in service. And should you return to civilian life after your 4-6 year contract ends, you get the G.I. Bill, which will provide you with enough money to earn a Bachelor's Degree. So you get an education, AND real world experience, plus getting a paycheck, and a home. Good deal! |
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Getting harassed on a daily basis because your desk had a microbe of dust on it is NOT WORTH IT IMO. There's only so much abuse you can take from a 20-year-old Sgt before you fantasize about putting his head on a flagpole =p Besides, there's several other ways to go to college without paying an arm and a leg. Technical School and Community College are great ways. In my state, you get 90% free tuition just for having a 2.0 HS GPA or a certain score on the GED, not to mention PELL and other benefits depending on your situation. And once you accumulate 30 hours you can transfer to a four-year school without ever showing them your HS GPA or SAT/ACT bullshit. And since most universities will transfer a maximum of 60 hours, you can get two years virtually half off and end up paying for only the remaining two years at a decent state school. Also, giving back to your country? I really don't see how getting paid to sit at a desk and push paper or sit out in the middle of a desert waiting to get shot on the taxpayers' dime is really a great service. To me the better option is to do something like civil service or teaching to inner-city kids in exchange for loan forgiveness. Still cynical, but so is the military option. I mean shit, my former college was a military school and half the cadets I talked to said they were just in ROTC for the money. If it were up to me, I would want to serve and see if I liked the work, and if I did I'd just stay on as long as I could transferring from job to job and pick up skills that way. I suppose as far jobs are concerned, yeah it's not bad and there are several ways to get civilian certifications without even doing anything extra. But if that's the whole point, you may as well do what I just said. |
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What percentage is 67 of 123? 100 * (67 / 123) 83 of 234? 100 * (83 / 234) But in both cases the general form for working out a percentage is Thing1 of Thing2 100 * (Thing1 / Thing2) Or, since those would be tiresome to write 100 * (X / Y) As in the video I made, they're just place-holder names for something you don't know yet. Whenever you've said 'to get the answer I divide this by this' you're using algebra. It's just that the X and Y and so on stand for 'This' by 'This.' Quote:
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Re: US education Yeah that's a good way to put it. I was gonna say the letter represents an unknown number, but placeholder is much simpler ^_^ But algebra isn't that bad it's mainly just the academic pacing of us schools. You're required to learn too much too fast, but on your own time and steam it's extremely stimulating. |
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Nem got point 2 pretty well. The third, well, you can just look at the US education system compared to other countries that have better mathematics scores - they all teach algebra, which pretty much annihilates your claim. The system is ridiculously more complex than whether bloody algebra is taught or not. Entering college without algebra (which as Adrian pointed out the GED does require) will either see you rejected or sent into remedial courses. I think Nem and Adrian got everything else. |
Re: US education In theory; I'm not entirely sure they allow new members into the monastic order. |
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