It's called an education system, but ultimately its purpose is to simply provide quantifiable data to employers looking for an easy way to separate an employee who might know how to do a job vs. someone who probably doesn't or isn't "motivated" enough.
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Originally Posted by Nemmerle
Then of course there are the more general flaws in the education system: A lack of relevance, a lack of reward for being wrong ( - the basis of all original discovery and learning: "That's.... odd...." ) the arbitrary and vicious rules, the lack of shared joy in learning.
Yeah, pretty much the only thing you get for being wrong here is, "LOL YOu're an IDIOT, don't you know this guy tells you what's right in chapter #2?"
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Originally Posted by Nemmerle
The frequently terrible, verging on non-existent, parenting....
Pretty much the same thing as above, incidentally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toph
I lucked out at my highschool. After algebra, no more calculators allowed on quizes and exams. You don't need one for the basics of calc and stats, especially if you're clever in making the test questions. Too many students in previous years just shoved it into their magic math machine and had no idea what they were doing. I remember most of it just fine because I had to learn why it works the way it works.
It's easy if you practice, but good luck getting help from the teachers. None of them have ever really been willing to give you any semblance of relation to ANYTHING, forget practical. How but just some way of seeing how this problem applies to anything else that I might understand?
No? Just repeat this problem until you get it? Oh...
But just FYI, I do happen to still think math is an exciting and invigorating subject and when I started getting good at it and learning to prove equations, often without the help of a piece of paper or pencil, it's one of the most intellectually stimulating things you can do in an afternoon. Sadly, you have to put up with a ton of shit before you get to the coursework or academic/professional level that even mentions that kind of work, let alone encourages it.
Quote:
I just have too much confidence in humanity I guess. I expect them to be responsible and shit, even when it's for stuff that doesn't directly affect them. I suppose that makes me a bit naive. And DIY is hard as hell at times. Especially the so called hidden curriculum: how to interact with authority and peers (and deal with bullshit). Home school can make that difficult sometimes
I lost my faith a long time ago
DIY is very rewarding, the problem is just managing to find an employer who either agrees with your point of view or translating your skills into the HR friendly language. Most people in this day and age when asking about your skills end up reacting like so:
"Hey, did you major in Computer Science?"
"Yes."
"Oh, I see, you must be a competent programmer and can surely come up with creative solutions to difficult problems."
"Hey, did you major in Computer Science?"
"No, in fact I've only had a few college courses. I mainly just learned programming on my own and experimented with my own projects to see what I could do."
"Whoa...what? Are you some kinda idiot? I'm not letting you anywhere near a computer! SECURITY!"
Last edited by Adrian Ţepeş; May 21st, 2014 at 12:03 PM.
"Oh, I see, you must be a competent programmer and can surely come up with creative solutions to difficult problems."
"Hey, did you major in Computer Science?"
"No, in fact I've only had a few college courses. I mainly just learned programming on my own and experimented with my own projects to see what I could do."
"Whoa...what? Are you some kinda idiot? I'm not letting you anywhere near a computer! SECURITY!"
That quite well sums it up. Your skills really don't matter at the end of the day. That fancy paper is what gets you the job, and the vast majority of these people were lucky to graduate at all. I know people in their mother's basement who know far more about computer programming, coding, and hacking, than most people who have spent years in University. But are these guys going to get a job?
No.
Why?
I didn't attend University, so I don't have that fancy paper.
That quite well sums it up. Your skills really don't matter at the end of the day. That fancy paper is what gets you the job, and the vast majority of these people were lucky to graduate at all. I know people in their mother's basement who know far more about computer programming, coding, and hacking, than most people who have spent years in University. But are these guys going to get a job?
No.
Why?
I didn't attend University, so I don't have that fancy paper.
*calls Security*
Makes sense to me. If you don't have the credentials to prove you have knowledge of a subject, why would I hire you?
It's the difference between an employer interviewing 300 people and watching each of them perform the task they're applying for (which would take too long) or asking to see their creds which takes a total of like... five seconds.
Words
Words
That
That
Kill
Kill
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Last edited by Schofield; May 24th, 2014 at 09:55 AM.
Algebra is one of the primary reasons students drop out of school, and they really have no choice.
1. There is NO WAY a letter can be a number. It simply doesn't work.
2. Algebra is not even used in real life unless you somehow become a rocket scientist. 99% of careers never use anything past basic multiplication and division, so there is NO reason to require algebra for graduating. And furthermore, this requirement didn't come round until the last few decades. During the 50s and 60s, more people were graduating from high school, so more people went to college, and graduated, so more were able to find successful careers. Why? Because algebra was never a requirement.
3. Getting a GED does not require algebra, but a GED also will not give you any college scholarships. This means that is you want to have ANY hope of going to college, you will need to sink yourself into thousands upon thousands of student loans that you will never be able to pay. So even if you do have a GED, you are still stuck where you are, with no hope for a future. So why bother?
Algebra has single-handedly ruined the education system. It needs to be returned to optional status, and stay that way. If you do that, you will see the drop out rate return to only 10% or so. Being able to graduate from high school, much more people will be able to get college scholarships, and therefore able to get successful jobs, and successful careers. Many more people will have a hope for a good future, and be able to achieve a productive life where they will only need to focus on being good parents.
How else do you fix this? Instead of generic, basic education, you need to start training for the career you want. On the job training programs are a much faster way of learning, much more successful, and you get an actual job when you finish.
At least there is an alternative, and one I very highly suggest you do. I highly suggest you join the military anyway, but if you cannot get a college scholarship after graduation, or you cannot graduate in the first place, then you should go ahead and join the military right now. You get real on the job training, real world experience, and employers specifically look for that because military service shows you are dependable and trustworthy, and you are giving back to your country. And military does have in service schooling so you can earn your degree while in service. And should you return to civilian life after your 4-6 year contract ends, you get the G.I. Bill, which will provide you with enough money to earn a Bachelor's Degree. So you get an education, AND real world experience, plus getting a paycheck, and a home. Good deal!
Getting a GED does not require algebra, but a GED also will not give you any college scholarships. This means that is you want to have ANY hope of going to college, you will need to sink yourself into thousands upon thousands of student loans that you will never be able to pay. So even if you do have a GED, you are still stuck where you are, with no hope for a future. So why bother?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GED website
The mathematics content area contains 50 questions divided into two parts, and focuses on the following content areas:
Number operations and number sense (20-30%)
Measurement and geometry (20-30%)
Data analysis, statistics, and probability (20-30%) Algebra, functions, and patterns (20-30%)
At places like Georgia Institute of Technology and Southern Tech, you have to take at least Pre-Calculus even for Psychology and English. They only do that because they're engineering schools, but yeah, I can understand why you wouldn't really need that for something that doesn't, for the most part, require it. Quantitative reasoning is certainly necessary for Psychology (especially at the graduate level), but they typically have specific courses designed for that
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At least there is an alternative, and one I very highly suggest you do. I highly suggest you join the military anyway, but if you cannot get a college scholarship after graduation, or you cannot graduate in the first place, then you should go ahead and join the military right now. You get real on the job training, real world experience, and employers specifically look for that because military service shows you are dependable and trustworthy, and you are giving back to your country. And military does have in service schooling so you can earn your degree while in service. And should you return to civilian life after your 4-6 year contract ends, you get the G.I. Bill, which will provide you with enough money to earn a Bachelor's Degree. So you get an education, AND real world experience, plus getting a paycheck, and a home. Good deal!
It may get you a lot of benefits, but the US military is not something I can really ever suggest UNLESS you want to do it for the sake of being a soldier.
Getting harassed on a daily basis because your desk had a microbe of dust on it is NOT WORTH IT IMO. There's only so much abuse you can take from a 20-year-old Sgt before you fantasize about putting his head on a flagpole
Besides, there's several other ways to go to college without paying an arm and a leg.
Technical School and Community College are great ways. In my state, you get 90% free tuition just for having a 2.0 HS GPA or a certain score on the GED, not to mention PELL and other benefits depending on your situation. And once you accumulate 30 hours you can transfer to a four-year school without ever showing them your HS GPA or SAT/ACT bullshit. And since most universities will transfer a maximum of 60 hours, you can get two years virtually half off and end up paying for only the remaining two years at a decent state school.
Also, giving back to your country? I really don't see how getting paid to sit at a desk and push paper or sit out in the middle of a desert waiting to get shot on the taxpayers' dime is really a great service.
To me the better option is to do something like civil service or teaching to inner-city kids in exchange for loan forgiveness. Still cynical, but so is the military option. I mean shit, my former college was a military school and half the cadets I talked to said they were just in ROTC for the money.
If it were up to me, I would want to serve and see if I liked the work, and if I did I'd just stay on as long as I could transferring from job to job and pick up skills that way. I suppose as far jobs are concerned, yeah it's not bad and there are several ways to get civilian certifications without even doing anything extra. But if that's the whole point, you may as well do what I just said.
Algebra is one of the primary reasons students drop out of school, and they really have no choice.
1. There is NO WAY a letter can be a number. It simply doesn't work.
Possibly this isn't the clearest explanation of the idea ever, but you don't have to think of letters as numbers for algebra to work:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindale
2. Algebra is not even used in real life unless you somehow become a rocket scientist. 99% of careers never use anything past basic multiplication and division, so there is NO reason to require algebra for graduating.
Pretty much everything you do with numbers is algebra. Want to work out a percentage?
What percentage is 67 of 123?
100 * (67 / 123)
83 of 234?
100 * (83 / 234)
But in both cases the general form for working out a percentage is Thing1 of Thing2
100 * (Thing1 / Thing2)
Or, since those would be tiresome to write
100 * (X / Y)
As in the video I made, they're just place-holder names for something you don't know yet.
Whenever you've said 'to get the answer I divide this by this' you're using algebra. It's just that the X and Y and so on stand for 'This' by 'This.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindale
And furthermore, this requirement didn't come round until the last few decades. During the 50s and 60s, more people were graduating from high school, so more people went to college, and graduated, so more were able to find successful careers. Why? Because algebra was never a requirement.
Fewer people went to college in the 50s and 60s and fewer people graduated school.
Yeah that's a good way to put it. I was gonna say the letter represents an unknown number, but placeholder is much simpler ^_^
But algebra isn't that bad it's mainly just the academic pacing of us schools. You're required to learn too much too fast, but on your own time and steam it's extremely stimulating.
1. There is NO WAY a letter can be a number. It simply doesn't work.
2. Algebra is not even used in real life unless you somehow become a rocket scientist. 99% of careers never use anything past basic multiplication and division, so there is NO reason to require algebra for graduating.
[3] Algebra has single-handedly ruined the education system.
I'm not even sure where to begin. Teach you algebra to address point 1, which are the thoughts that I had in kindergarten when my dad was teaching me algebra? They're just placeholders like Adrian said. And letters like Pi pretty much are numbers, unless you're Greek.
Nem got point 2 pretty well.
The third, well, you can just look at the US education system compared to other countries that have better mathematics scores - they all teach algebra, which pretty much annihilates your claim. The system is ridiculously more complex than whether bloody algebra is taught or not.
Entering college without algebra (which as Adrian pointed out the GED does require) will either see you rejected or sent into remedial courses.
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