I wish to make a point

[NiRv4n4]

i sort of agree with nikes point. a lot of people wanna be rebels becasue it seems so glamorous and stuff. however, when a new fad comes around, they fall into it just like most everyone else. i myself am not really a rebel when it comes down to it, i like things to be very structured, but do think that individualism and questioning things are fine, so long as they don't interfere wtih the good way of life.

[Aeroflot]

Just remember that without non-conformists society cannot progress at all. If everyone is thinking the same things then where will that lead anybody? I think one of the biggest examples is music.

[Siddharth Gupta]

Originally Posted by Zeez

Welcome to the terror of non-conformity. Welcome to a world where it is safer and more acceptable to be a consumer of the filth they throw at you rather than saying no and deciding upon an alternative point of view. Welcome to a world where we're apologetic for being different from the norm, where you're ridiculed for an individual thought, where only those who adhere to the fashion/style/music/thought/opinion of the masses are acceptable in society. Welcome to a society that applauds those who seek to fit in and ostrasises those who dare to be different. Welcome to a future where being different equals being an enemy of the state. Welcome to the world where your ability as a consumer to buy the same things as everyone else outweighs your ability to think for yourself, decide on your tastes and believe in what you want to believe.

Welcome to hell on earth. Modern life is Rubbish.

(and "hi")

I do not find myself conforming to any of those things that you mentioned that society finds wrong. I do find that people often do not talk to me for that reason. I'm not particularly shunned but no one is by any means concerned or the least bit even greeting me. I find it quite liberating, though, to not be just another zombie and be a person apart from all those lacking will and self-pride and the ability to actually do something. What do you all think?

Originally Posted by TheMirage

Having now returned for a while from Pendleton, I actually have some time on my hands to visit GF now and again. On one of my recent visits I opened a tread entitled "why do we regret" or something like that. Seems like an interesting question to me, worthy of discussion for disscussions' sake. But the thing that really struck me about what the author posted was at the end of his post

again, something like that.
Why is it in today's world whenever anyone introduces a topic about something remotley intellectual, intelligent or deep, we feel the need to excuse ourselves for being "weird". Stop apologizing for being smart, and actually using that most valuable organ; your brain. This goes right up along there with people apologizing for things that they can't even control, or apologizing for being annoying (which actually IS annoying) every time they ask a question or make a request. Seriously, when did it become abnormal to think about things, ourselves and the way we work? Or anything else? I want to see no more comments of this nature. If you've had a deep or intellectual thought, something you want to discuss or shed light on, DO SO! And without excusing your intelligence and insight!

I think so too but sometimes the words you use can go a great way to what you want. However, I'm not saying it's for every situation where you need something that you should be like this. It... depends.

Originally Posted by Covin Narcissus
I don't think that talking about "deep" stuff like that really makes you intellectual... I think it's more out of being curious and wanting to hear other people's opinions on their actions and feelings toward something. Not caring or already having an understanding of something like that doesn't make you unintellectual.

I don't really understand what you are saying... does doing what you said make you intellectual, unintellectual or in the middle? Or are you saying that we think deep because we are curious about things? In my opinion, I think wanting to learn about things that you don't know about is quite an intellectual activity and that would be anything that sparks curiosity or interest.

Originally Posted by NiteStryker

Non conformity is laughable. So many people make it their mission to go "against the grind". To be different, rebellious.

Well, so have many other people. Congrats, you just conformed to the non conformists.

Why do people care so much about trying to stand out?

As I said, it is not because I want to stand out but it is because it brings a liberating feeling. I do it because I can! Because it's fun!!!

Originally Posted by TheMirage

thats an excellent point aero, so in reality the true noticeable difference between the people is weather or not they try to "hide" their "intellectual moments" in an effort to conform. Which is why people who do NOT do so feel compelled to "excuse" themselves for not doing it. I think it is the greatest tragedy in human society as a whole that the mainstream to which we are supposed to conform calls for the suppression of intellect in order to be "cool".

Hey, you gotta make a choice. Would you rather be "cool" or would rather do something constructive, useful, with purpose and something that actually has positive yields? I prefer the latter.

Also to refer to the point that zeez made about pop-culture winning, that is the need for non-conformists to be "rebellious" as so many refer to it as. They need to stand out and make a shout. That's the only way people are gonna recognize. I know many people who respect Einstein, Hawking and Newton even if they don't really care about intellectual matters. I think this is another point that is important for one to actually make an impact whether people like it or not. It is the amount of influence they wield. Look at the people zeez has mentioned. Their teachings are even prevalent and present today no matter how many years it has been since they have died (if they have). That is the reason that I think they are still big figures and quite reveared (how is that spelt?).

[Covin Narcissus]

Originally Posted by Aeroflot

We generally think of intellectuals as people who devote their lives to 'smart' things, but people are not different enough to separate them into groups such as 'intellectuals' and 'non-intellectuals' because we all use our brains to do 'smart' things at some point.

Otay.

Originally Posted by Siddharth Gupta

I don't really understand what you are saying... does doing what you said make you intellectual, unintellectual or in the middle? Or are you saying that we think deep because we are curious about things? In my opinion, I think wanting to learn about things that you don't know about is quite an intellectual activity and that would be anything that sparks curiosity or interest.

Otay.


I'm not saying this is an intellectual conversation at all... it isn't! I've had much deeper conversations over things than what a meaning of a word means to me... but I guess some of you must not have experienced that yet.

I'm so intellectual right now.







I guess what I'm really trying to get at is that this is in the wrong forum... I suppose none of you noticed the hyperlink in my last post.

[Zeez]

Originally Posted by NiteStryker

Non conformity is laughable. So many people make it their mission to go "against the grind". To be different, rebellious.

So many people take the same ideas as this and think that just because they belong to a sub-culture they are non-conformists and assume it makes them cool or whatnot forgetting that all they are doing is conforming to a different set of norms than the rest of society, but it is still a set of rules, behaviours and ideals. You are still a sheep in a flock of identical sheep.

Take, for example, the Church of Satan. One could claim this is a society of non-conformity. They have rejected the beliefs and ideals of modern society and embraced the most carnal of man’s manifestations. But is this non-conformity? No, it isn’t. It’s simply another set of rules and another set of clones following those rules.

To be a true individual in the sea of humanity that surrounds us is to reject labels and tags and reject belief systems. I am neither liberal, conservative, Christian, Moslem or Atheist. Not pro-life or pro-choice. I am Zeez. I am me. I reject society’s attempts to box me into their system for it is a system of control above all else.

It’s difficult to fully identify non-conformity as most people who are different are lost in a sea of uniformity. It’s needle in haystack syndrome. The biggest group with the biggest voice shouts loudest and, naturally, the individual is drowned out and goes unnoticed. For some it is ideal. For others it is immensely frustrating. I abhor the elitist who believes they are so different that people should follow them and conform to their way of thinking. A true individual does not need the validation of his peers. A true individual simply is.

[Nemmerle]

Anything you can name conforms to some criteria. The question is not necessarily one of binary states but one of degree.

[Siddharth Gupta]

Originally Posted by Covin Narcissus

Otay.

Otay.


I'm not saying this is an intellectual conversation at all... it isn't! I've had much deeper conversations over things than what a meaning of a word means to me... but I guess some of you must not have experienced that yet.

I'm so intellectual right now.







I guess what I'm really trying to get at is that this is in the wrong forum... I suppose none of you noticed the hyperlink in my last post.

Okay I understand that you are saying you have what you feel deeper and more intellectual conversations than this, but how does this going/not going in the pub make it any less or more intellectual?

Originally Posted by Zeez

So many people take the same ideas as this and think that just because they belong to a sub-culture they are non-conformists and assume it makes them cool or whatnot forgetting that all they are doing is conforming to a different set of norms than the rest of society, but it is still a set of rules, behaviours and ideals. You are still a sheep in a flock of identical sheep.

Take, for example, the Church of Satan. One could claim this is a society of non-conformity. They have rejected the beliefs and ideals of modern society and embraced the most carnal of man’s manifestations. But is this non-conformity? No, it isn’t. It’s simply another set of rules and another set of clones following those rules.

To be a true individual in the sea of humanity that surrounds us is to reject labels and tags and reject belief systems. I am neither liberal, conservative, Christian, Moslem or Atheist. Not pro-life or pro-choice. I am Zeez. I am me. I reject society’s attempts to box me into their system for it is a system of control above all else.

It’s difficult to fully identify non-conformity as most people who are different are lost in a sea of uniformity. It’s needle in haystack syndrome. The biggest group with the biggest voice shouts loudest and, naturally, the individual is drowned out and goes unnoticed. For some it is ideal. For others it is immensely frustrating. I abhor the elitist who believes they are so different that people should follow them and conform to their way of thinking. A true individual does not need the validation of his peers. A true individual simply is.

Let's just create a hypothetical situation that happens anyway. What if you get followers of the ways that you follow and the ideals that you have and believe in and eventually there are so many that even that becomes a religion/caste/creed? Would you still be an individual and unique yourself as being the leader and the origin and source of these beliefs? Or would you just be another conformist in the same manner?

Another question that I have is why is it bad to be a conformist in every situation? Is it every situation that you're applying this to or just the fact that society is full of people who are all about popularity and "coolness" rather than advancement and evolution? If it's the latter than I agree with you but what if you are simply a do-gooder and there are so many that even that makes you a conformist. Are you saying that being a do-gooder would be bad in every situation? Surely, that can't be even if there are some.

Originally Posted by Nemmerle

Anything you can name conforms to some criteria. The question is not necessarily one of binary states but one of degree.

Care to clarify your meaning? I'm not really used to these words in the context with the meaning that they have that you've put them in. I mean as far as I understand you, you're saying that no matter what you have to conform to something, am I right? Well I guess what really makes it matter is whether you are conforming to something that is well known or ingrained in society or something that you believe in which is an individual belief and nobody else follows. As far as I see what peoples' opinions are, the former is bad and the latter is good. Well in this case anyway.

[Nemmerle]

I meant it somewhat more literally. In order to properly name a thing that thing must conform to some common criteria that all members of whatever group the name is applied to share in some sense or another. Even social use theories such as a Strawsonian view have to conceed this point otherwise you couldn't tell where one group ended and another started and couldn't apply the name. Anything you can name conforms, to some degree or another.

[Siddharth Gupta]

But you can still maintain some degree of individuality, right? I mean what if you have one characteristic of this class and another characteristic of the other and another of a third and so on. Sure maybe based on one of these you could be said to be conforming to some criteria but as whole you still follow the beliefs that you most believe in and it could possibly make you quite a bit different than most members of society, right? Not saying that this is always the case, but then again it is also not not always the case.

[AlDaja]

why and when did it become the norm to be an idiot?

Because people prefer to be mindless drones when it comes to everyday issues. Sheeple don’t like to offend the wolves…and nobody likes a black sheep alerting the rest that wolves are leading the herd.