I can pretty much say two things about this map that I can complain about:
1. Its annoyingly hard to spell and pronounce, correctly.
2. Must be the single most historically and geographically/topographically inaccurate map in FH's collection.
Now, one of these problems is one that can not be fixed, other than through hard studies of the spelling and pronunciation of the city. The other, however, can be rectified quite easily...
This map needs to be totally scrapped and totally redone. Like Foy style. And, since I know some of you are going to say "but I love this map, its so much fun!", I'm going to say it right now. I don't care. XWW2's Zitadelle is historically correct, and is probably my favorite non-Forgotten Hope map of all time.
This is what needs to be done to make everything better:
1 - Drop the Hills and Trees
The battle of Prokhorovka took place in the southern end of the Kursk salient, which was located right smack dab on the Steppes. What does this mean? The map should be vast, slightly rolling, grasslands. This means you don't have any of the steep hills or trees that are in the map right now. The whole thing reeks of inaccurcy, and I die a little bit inside when I follow up a round of Zitadelle with Prokhorovka.
2 - Remove the Towns and European Buildings
The steppes are very much devoid of these little western European buildings that we see in the map today. First of all, where would they get the wood? There are hardly any trees in the steppes for a single house, let alone an entire village! And what about those stone buildings. What rocks are there in the steppes? None, thats what. The few houses built on the steppes were made of sod (dirt) and light wooden frames. Time for some new statics! The huge farm houses have just got to go. It really is that simple.
3 - Field Bases
Seriously, what is going on with having full army bases in the middle of the steppes? Look at the Soviet base. It has concrete bunkers, full sized aerodomes (hangars), and sandbag walls. Then look at the German base. Both are located in relativly large towns, with full heavy flak implacements, AT guns, and camoflague tents for the Panzers. Although it would not look as cool, XWW2 hit the nail on the head with the German spawn. Masses of tanks located in a field with a small field airbase.
Proper Vehicles
Alright, lets face it devs. The way you equipped the Germans, they could be Waffen SS! Elefants, Panthers, THREE TIGERS, Panzer IVHs, Ju-87G-2s, Stug III Gs. The Soviets don't stand a chance in hell on this map! During the actual battle of Kursk you had ISU-152s, SU-85s, KV-85s, T-34 Mod. 42s, Il-2 3M (the 37mm armed Sturmovik), along with the basic crap in the map now. The map has, now, outdated models of the KV-1, T-34As, BT-7s, and Lend-Lease Churchills. This looks and feels like a third rate occupation unit to me!
-Panzer IVF-2. Not all of the Panzer IVs at Kursk were the sweet little Hs guys! C'mon! Just because its good doesnt mean it has to be on every map! *cough* Jumbo *cough*
-Updated T-34s. Won't really give the Soviets a better chance, but it sure as hell will make the mod a lot more accurate. I'm thinking the M42 and M43 versions.
-Panzer III. Screw this bumpmapping shit. We don't just want that tank, we need it! For the love of God, WE NEED IT! Not every tank in the Whermacht was the uber Panzer IVH or IVG! The plain and simple fact is that the Panzer III, in one variant or another, was still very much in active combat service as an MBT during this phase of the war.
-Su-85. Give the Soviets something that can reach out and touch something! That big 85mm cannon can tear up a Panzer IVH with few worries. For that matter, make the Su-100 for later maps as well.
-(I)SU-152 and (I)SU-122. Named the "Animal Hunter" because of its ability to tame the Tiger and Panther. Only carried 20 rounds (152), but I'll be damned if they didn't scare the crap out of every Tiger commander! Shit, with this tank alone the Russians actually stand a chance.
-Ju-87. Nope, its not in, seeing as how neither of the so called "Stukas" look at all like the Ju-87s in service at the time! Add proper gun pods to the Gustav, and remove the uber 1000 kilogram "Nuka-Stuka". My ass if that thing was used on tanks!
-Pe-2. Give the Soviets something small and fast to make those Germans pay for invading the motherland! The Il-2M in the mod right now just doen't cut it, at least for me.
Alright, thats it. Like I said, I don't care if you think the current one is fun. Its inaccurate, and thats all that counts!
Another fine USMA post edited for language and content - Anlushac11
Last edited by Anlushac11; March 23rd, 2005 at 02:21 PM.
1 - Drop the Hills and Trees
The battle of Prokhorovka took place in the southern end of the Kursk salient, which was located right smack dab on the Steppes. What does this mean? The map should be vast, slightly rolling, grasslands. This means you don't have any of the steep hills or trees that are in the map right now. The whole thing reeks of inaccurcy, and I die a little bit inside when I follow up a round of Zitadelle with Prokhorovka.
Agreed, less hills, less SUNSHINE! (that map hurts my eyes its so bright)
Quote:
2 - Remove the Towns and European Buildings
The steppes are very much devoid of these little western European buildings that we see in the map today. First of all, where would they get the wood? There are hardly any trees in the steppes for a single house, let alone an entire village! And what about those stone buildings. What rocks are there in the steppes? None, thats what. The few houses built on the steppes were made of sod (dirt) and light wooden frames. Time for some new statics! The huge farm houses have just got to go. It really is that simple.
Agreed, but people wil whine about infantry not having a chance since they cant hide from tanks..
Quote:
3 - Field Bases
Seriously, what is going on with having full army bases in the middle of the steppes? Look at the Soviet base. It has concrete bunkers, full sized aerodomes (hangars), and sandbag walls. Then look at the German base. Both are located in relativly large towns, with full heavy flak implacements, AT guns, and camoflague tents for the Panzers. Although it would not look as cool, XWW2 hit the nail on the head with the German spawn. Masses of tanks located in a field with a small field airbase.
Agreed, agreed.. its not the only map with this problem.
Quote:
-Ju-87. Nope, its not in, seeing as how neither of the so called "Stukas" look at all like the Ju-87s in service at the time! Add proper gun pods to the Gustav, and remove the uber 1000 kilogram "Nuka-Stuka". My ass if that thing was used on tanks!
1000kg is a bit over the top, 2 times 500 or even 1 500 bomb is good enough, if you dont agree, learn to aim better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Bernard Shaw
No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means.
2. Must be the single most historically and geographically/topographically inaccurate map in FH's collection.
This is what needs to be done to make everything better:
1 - Drop the Hills and Trees
The battle of Prokhorovka took place in the southern end of the Kursk salient, which was located right smack dab on the Steppes. What does this mean? The map should be vast, slightly rolling, grasslands. This means you don't have any of the steep hills or trees that are in the map right now. The whole thing reeks of inaccurcy, and I die a little bit inside when I follow up a round of Zitadelle with Prokhorovka.
Lighten up Francis.
This is a computer generated image based on the heightmaps from the Prokhorovka area looking southwest which is how the map is laid out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by [11PzG] USMA2010
2 - Remove the Towns and European Buildings
The steppes are very much devoid of these little western European buildings that we see in the map today. First of all, where would they get the wood? There are hardly any trees in the steppes for a single house, let alone an entire village! And what about those stone buildings. What rocks are there in the steppes? None, thats what. The few houses built on the steppes were made of sod (dirt) and light wooden frames. Time for some new statics! The huge farm houses have just got to go. It really is that simple.
It is not devoid of buildings. This is not a new building.
Quote:
Originally Posted by [11PzG] USMA2010
3 - Field Bases
Seriously, what is going on with having full army bases in the middle of the steppes? Look at the Soviet base. It has concrete bunkers, full sized aerodomes (hangars), and sandbag walls. Then look at the German base. Both are located in relativly large towns, with full heavy flak implacements, AT guns, and camoflague tents for the Panzers. Although it would not look as cool, XWW2 hit the nail on the head with the German spawn. Masses of tanks located in a field with a small field airbase.
There were several villages around Prokhorovka. It was a fairly populated area being full of farmlands and was not in the middle of nowhere. Yees there are open rolling areas but it varies depending on area.
This is a map showing how many towns were in the area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by [11PzG] USMA2010
Proper Vehicles
Alright, lets face it devs. The way you equipped the Germans, they could be Waffen SS! Elefants, Panthers, THREE TIGERS, Panzer IVHs, Ju-87G-2s, Stug III Gs. The Soviets don't stand a chance in hell on this map! During the actual battle of Kursk you had ISU-152s, SU-85s, KV-85s, T-34 Mod. 42s, Il-2 3M (the 37mm armed Sturmovik), along with the basic crap in the map now. The map has, now, outdated models of the KV-1, T-34As, BT-7s, and Lend-Lease Churchills. This looks and feels like a third rate occupation unit to me!
-Panzer IVF-2. Not all of the Panzer IVs at Kursk were the sweet little Hs guys! C'mon! Just because its good doesnt mean it has to be on every map! *cough* Jumbo *cough*
-Updated T-34s. Won't really give the Soviets a better chance, but it sure as hell will make the mod a lot more accurate. I'm thinking the M42 and M43 versions.
-Panzer III. Screw this bumpmapping shit. We don't just want that tank, we need it! For the love of God, WE NEED IT! Not every tank in the Whermacht was the uber Panzer IVH or IVG! The plain and simple fact is that the Panzer III, in one variant or another, was still very much in active combat service as an MBT during this phase of the war.
-Su-85. Give the Soviets something that can reach out and touch something! That big 85mm cannon can tear up a Panzer IVH with few worries. For that matter, make the Su-100 for later maps as well.
-(I)SU-152 and (I)SU-122. Named the "Animal Hunter" because of its ability to tame the Tiger and Panther. Only carried 20 rounds (152), but I'll be damned if they didn't scare the crap out of every Tiger commander! Shit, with this tank alone the Russians actually stand a chance.
-Ju-87. Nope, its not in, seeing as how neither of the so called "Stukas" look at all like the Ju-87s in service at the time! Add proper gun pods to the Gustav, and remove the uber 1000 kilogram "Nuka-Stuka". My ass if that thing was used on tanks!
-Pe-2. Give the Soviets something small and fast to make those Germans pay for invading the motherland! The Il-2M in the mod right now just doen't cut it, at least for me.
Alright, thats it. Like I said, I don't care if you think the current one is fun. Its inaccurate, and thats all that counts!
THE SU-85 and KV-85 WERE NOT AT KURSK! WE HAVE BEEN OVER THIS BEFORE.
The first 140 something KV-85's did not arrive at the front til September of 1943. They were used by the 34th Guard Heavy Tank Breakthough Regiment and participated in the liberation of the Ukraine.
The SU-85 was first used in the Dnieper River crossings in September of 1943.
The ISU-122/152's didnt see action til spring of 1944.
Last edited by Anlushac11; March 23rd, 2005 at 02:23 PM.
Alright, lets face it devs. The way you equipped the Germans, they could be Waffen SS!
The forces on the southern shoulder of the salient contained many Waffen SS units. II SS Panzer Corps was an extremely effective fighting unit - containing Leibstandarte, Das Reich and Totenkopf divisions. It had 390 tanks including 42 Tigers and over 100 assault guns.
XLII Corps, part of Army Detachment Kempf, contained the 560th Heavy Panzer Destroyer Detachment with 40 Hornisse tank destroyers. Hornisse, if in FH, would perform similarly to the Elefant currently in-game, since it carried the superb 88mm L/71 gun.
That said, the map is pretty inaccurate, but for almost none of the reasons stated in the OP. The main element missing is the series of the defensive belts that the Red Army built in preparation for the battle. Infantry trenches, machine gun nests, anti-tank ditches, massive minefields etc. were constructed in order to channel German armor into narrow paths around which were placed groups of hidden AT guns and roving bands of AT infantry. This whole aspect of the battle, which was a main contributor to German defeat, is strangely absent.
The forces on the southern shoulder of the salient contained many Waffen SS units. II SS Panzer Corps was an extremely effective fighting unit - containing Leibstandarte, Das Reich and Totenkopf divisions. It had 390 tanks including 42 Tigers and over 100 assault guns.
XLII Corps, part of Army Detachment Kempf, contained the 560th Heavy Panzer Destroyer Detachment with 40 Hornisse tank destroyers. Hornisse, if in FH, would perform similarly to the Elefant currently in-game, since it carried the superb 88mm L/71 gun.
That said, the map is pretty inaccurate, but for almost none of the reasons stated in the OP. The main element missing is the series of the defensive belts that the Red Army built in preparation for the battle. Infantry trenches, machine gun nests, anti-tank ditches, massive minefields etc. were constructed in order to channel German armor into narrow paths around which were placed groups of hidden AT guns and roving bands of AT infantry. This whole aspect of the battle, which was a main contributor to German defeat, is strangely absent.
Uh, isn't that what is at the flag known as "hilltop"
Personally, I like it. No, it isn't the most realistic, but it's over half way for sure.
Uh, isn't that what is at the flag known as "hilltop"
If that's what its supposed to be, its a sorry excuse for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smurf
Uh, isn't that what is at the flag known as "hilltop"
Personally, I like it. No, it isn't the most realistic, but it's over half way for sure.
Half way? Half realistic? What are you daft? You cannot put a figure on the amount of 'realism' that way. It isn't representative of the actual battle, but it is a fun map regardless. Maybe change the name of the current map and make an new map with the name Prokhorovka. Or more accurately, Prokhorovka outskirts or something, as II SS Panzer Corps never made it to the town itself.
This is a computer generated image based on the heightmaps from the Prokhorovka area looking southwest which is how the map is laid out.
It is not devoid of buildings. This is not a new building.
There were several villages around Prokhorovka. It was a fairly populated area being full of farmlands and was not in the middle of nowhere. Yees there are open rolling areas but it varies depending on area.
This is a map showing how many towns were in the area.
THE SU-85 and KV-85 WERE NOT AT KURSK! WE HAVE BEEN OVER THIS BEFORE.
The first 140 something KV-85's did not arrive at the front til September of 1943. They were used by the 34th Guard Heavy Tank Breakthough Regiment and participated in the liberation of the Ukraine.
The SU-85 was first used in the Dnieper River crossings in September of 1943.
The ISU-122/152's didnt see action til spring of 1944.
Thanks for the information, especially about the SU-85 and KV-85. I'm just looking for Soviet tanks that might be better for the Reds than the T-34 and early KV-1s. About the villages... I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of a general Kursk map.
Don't get me wrong, I'm definatly not saying make it devoid of buildings... It just feels like there are too many, thats all. IMO, the XWW2 map Zitadelle hit the nail on the head, especially with their perfect *drool* tank cannon code. Less large towns, and a few scatered hamlets here and there...
Orange: D'OH! I knew it felt like I missed something(s) there! The Nashorn/Hornesse would be a great addition to the mod! Also, I would love to see a slightly redone Panzer IV Ausf. H to the Panzer IV Ausf G.
About the Panzer III. Seriously guys, just work out a trade with XWW2. I've talked with their devs on the servers, and they are open to the idea. The M1928 Thompson, Cromwell, and Matilda Mk. II were all mentioned as things that they would love to have in their mod. Hey! Aren't you guys re-doing the Cromwell anyways? You give them the old one, and we get a lash-up (so to speak *looks at RAD*) Panzer III!
EDIT: Bonta, I just checked WWII Vehicles.com, and they say the first SU-122s were issued in January of 1943! They also say that production of the KV-85 started in 1943, and the tank entered service in 1943, and "was available in large numbers at Kursk in July 1943."
I was not able to verify the KV-85 numbers on Wikipedia, but was able to en re the SU-122. It specificaly said that production began in 1942, and they were removed from service in 1944. The ISUs, however did indeed first enter productino in late 1943 (122). I know the SU-122 was not a magnificant tank buster, having to close pretty damn close to the target to penetrate, but whatever. It is still very necessary to the mod, non?
Oh yeah, one more thing for the devs... KV-1S!!!1one
Last edited by [11PzG] USMA2010; March 23rd, 2005 at 05:56 PM.
I was thinking that Prokhorovka (I say "Prock-hoe-rove-ka") should look something along the lines of a map on Red Orchestra whose name excapes me right now. There are a ton of little shacks skattered around the map with gates around them which are surrounded by some grain of some sort. There are dirt roads around the place and little bridges to go over the little irrigation channels. It is set sometime around the fall. If one was to touch up Prok that is how I would like it to look (make it look like some place people would live).
Personally I love the map, great tank country and greater IL-2/Stuka hunting grounds.
When you see this rolling at you, you know you've got yourself a great map.
Now, as for general balance issues. There were 200 Panthers used during the Kursk Offensive, and while I'm not sure how many where used in the Prokhorovka area, the definatly need to stay on the map. 3 Tigers are just ownage. Remember, the Germans massed together everything they had at Kursk, the Tigers need to stay. The Ferdinand (no MG, so no elefant I think ) rules this map in some regards. It's 88 L/71 knocks out Tigers while a Tiger only does around 4% damage to it. Too poweful? maybe, but it can still be nuked by the IL-2's and it's side and rear armor can be penetrated pretty easily.
Now as for the multiple Pzr IVH. This could use a reduction in numbers while the Russian forces could definatly use a boost in T-34's and possibly even Shermans on lend lease. The Nuka should go, IRC they were only used against heavily fortified bunkers and battleships (Rudel knocked the forward turrets off Marat with a 1000kg).
I do however beleive that the Russians should have massive trench systems (If It can be done without too much lag) with ZI-3's ahoy. They worked for months digging anti tank trenches and the like. They should have a few Artillery batteries behind the Trench system as well. There should be prefabricated hull down entrenchments for their tanks so the Germans have a much harder target to hit.
Personally the map is awsome for tank fights albeit a little unbalanced in direct fire fights between a few T-34's firing at 3 Tigers that are making an assault together. All the flags should be well entrenched and fortfied so that the Germans must make a combined push with all their tanks one point at a time. Something like a push map comes to mind so that the Russians cannot recap the points but the Germans have no set order. The Russians should have superiority in numbers and dug in positions whle the Germans have a few heavies and a few medium tanks.
But, thats just my dream map
Playing as Barron_of_Doom in FH2
Lightsabers are for kids! I'd like to see 250, maybe 300 pounds of pure action, my man Jek Porkins, hold off a dozen stormtroopers while downing a couple of cheeseburgers.
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Prokhorovka 
) rules this map in some regards. It's 88 L/71 knocks out Tigers while a Tiger only does around 4% damage to it. Too poweful? maybe, but it can still be nuked by the IL-2's and it's side and rear armor can be penetrated pretty easily.
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