Prokhorovka
 

I can pretty much say two things about this map that I can complain about:

1. Its annoyingly hard to spell and pronounce, correctly.
2. Must be the single most historically and geographically/topographically inaccurate map in FH's collection.

Now, one of these problems is one that can not be fixed, other than through hard studies of the spelling and pronunciation of the city. The other, however, can be rectified quite easily...

This map needs to be totally scrapped and totally redone. Like Foy style. And, since I know some of you are going to say "but I love this map, its so much fun!", I'm going to say it right now. I don't care. XWW2's Zitadelle is historically correct, and is probably my favorite non-Forgotten Hope map of all time.

This is what needs to be done to make everything better:

1 - Drop the Hills and Trees
The battle of Prokhorovka took place in the southern end of the Kursk salient, which was located right smack dab on the Steppes. What does this mean? The map should be vast, slightly rolling, grasslands. This means you don't have any of the steep hills or trees that are in the map right now. The whole thing reeks of inaccurcy, and I die a little bit inside when I follow up a round of Zitadelle with Prokhorovka.

2 - Remove the Towns and European Buildings
The steppes are very much devoid of these little western European buildings that we see in the map today. First of all, where would they get the wood? There are hardly any trees in the steppes for a single house, let alone an entire village! And what about those stone buildings. What rocks are there in the steppes? None, thats what. The few houses built on the steppes were made of sod (dirt) and light wooden frames. Time for some new statics! The huge farm houses have just got to go. It really is that simple.

3 - Field Bases
Seriously, what is going on with having full army bases in the middle of the steppes? Look at the Soviet base. It has concrete bunkers, full sized aerodomes (hangars), and sandbag walls. Then look at the German base. Both are located in relativly large towns, with full heavy flak implacements, AT guns, and camoflague tents for the Panzers. Although it would not look as cool, XWW2 hit the nail on the head with the German spawn. Masses of tanks located in a field with a small field airbase.

Proper Vehicles
Alright, lets face it devs. The way you equipped the Germans, they could be Waffen SS! Elefants, Panthers, THREE TIGERS, Panzer IVHs, Ju-87G-2s, Stug III Gs. The Soviets don't stand a chance in hell on this map! During the actual battle of Kursk you had ISU-152s, SU-85s, KV-85s, T-34 Mod. 42s, Il-2 3M (the 37mm armed Sturmovik), along with the basic crap in the map now. The map has, now, outdated models of the KV-1, T-34As, BT-7s, and Lend-Lease Churchills. This looks and feels like a third rate occupation unit to me!

-Panzer IVF-2. Not all of the Panzer IVs at Kursk were the sweet little Hs guys! C'mon! Just because its good doesnt mean it has to be on every map! *cough* Jumbo *cough*

-Updated T-34s. Won't really give the Soviets a better chance, but it sure as hell will make the mod a lot more accurate. I'm thinking the M42 and M43 versions.

-Panzer III. Screw this bumpmapping shit. We don't just want that tank, we need it! For the love of God, WE NEED IT! Not every tank in the Whermacht was the uber Panzer IVH or IVG! The plain and simple fact is that the Panzer III, in one variant or another, was still very much in active combat service as an MBT during this phase of the war.

-Su-85. Give the Soviets something that can reach out and touch something! That big 85mm cannon can tear up a Panzer IVH with few worries. For that matter, make the Su-100 for later maps as well.

-(I)SU-152 and (I)SU-122. Named the "Animal Hunter" because of its ability to tame the Tiger and Panther. Only carried 20 rounds (152), but I'll be damned if they didn't scare the crap out of every Tiger commander! Shit, with this tank alone the Russians actually stand a chance.

-Ju-87. Nope, its not in, seeing as how neither of the so called "Stukas" look at all like the Ju-87s in service at the time! Add proper gun pods to the Gustav, and remove the uber 1000 kilogram "Nuka-Stuka". My ass if that thing was used on tanks!

-Pe-2. Give the Soviets something small and fast to make those Germans pay for invading the motherland! The Il-2M in the mod right now just doen't cut it, at least for me.

Alright, thats it. Like I said, I don't care if you think the current one is fun. Its inaccurate, and thats all that counts!

Another fine USMA post edited for language and content - Anlushac11

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Agreed, less hills, less SUNSHINE! (that map hurts my eyes its so bright)

Agreed, but people wil whine about infantry not having a chance since they cant hide from tanks.. http://forums.filefront.com/images/s...28frown%29.gif

Agreed, agreed.. its not the only map with this problem.

1000kg is a bit over the top, 2 times 500 or even 1 500 bomb is good enough, if you dont agree, learn to aim better.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Lighten up Francis.

This is a computer generated image based on the heightmaps from the Prokhorovka area looking southwest which is how the map is laid out.
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/av...ures/test3.gif
It is not devoid of buildings. This is not a new building.
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/av...ures/pic21.jpg

There were several villages around Prokhorovka. It was a fairly populated area being full of farmlands and was not in the middle of nowhere. Yees there are open rolling areas but it varies depending on area.

This is a map showing how many towns were in the area.
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/av...s/prokmap1.jpg


THE SU-85 and KV-85 WERE NOT AT KURSK! WE HAVE BEEN OVER THIS BEFORE.


The first 140 something KV-85's did not arrive at the front til September of 1943. They were used by the 34th Guard Heavy Tank Breakthough Regiment and participated in the liberation of the Ukraine.

The SU-85 was first used in the Dnieper River crossings in September of 1943.

The ISU-122/152's didnt see action til spring of 1944.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

The forces on the southern shoulder of the salient contained many Waffen SS units. II SS Panzer Corps was an extremely effective fighting unit - containing Leibstandarte, Das Reich and Totenkopf divisions. It had 390 tanks including 42 Tigers and over 100 assault guns.

XLII Corps, part of Army Detachment Kempf, contained the 560th Heavy Panzer Destroyer Detachment with 40 Hornisse tank destroyers. Hornisse, if in FH, would perform similarly to the Elefant currently in-game, since it carried the superb 88mm L/71 gun.

That said, the map is pretty inaccurate, but for almost none of the reasons stated in the OP. The main element missing is the series of the defensive belts that the Red Army built in preparation for the battle. Infantry trenches, machine gun nests, anti-tank ditches, massive minefields etc. were constructed in order to channel German armor into narrow paths around which were placed groups of hidden AT guns and roving bands of AT infantry. This whole aspect of the battle, which was a main contributor to German defeat, is strangely absent.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Uh, isn't that what is at the flag known as "hilltop"

Personally, I like it. No, it isn't the most realistic, but it's over half way for sure.

P.S. As always, great post Anlushac.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

If that's what its supposed to be, its a sorry excuse for it.

Half way? Half realistic? What are you daft? You cannot put a figure on the amount of 'realism' that way. It isn't representative of the actual battle, but it is a fun map regardless. Maybe change the name of the current map and make an new map with the name Prokhorovka. Or more accurately, Prokhorovka outskirts or something, as II SS Panzer Corps never made it to the town itself.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Thanks for the information, especially about the SU-85 and KV-85. I'm just looking for Soviet tanks that might be better for the Reds than the T-34 and early KV-1s. About the villages... I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of a general Kursk map.

Don't get me wrong, I'm definatly not saying make it devoid of buildings... It just feels like there are too many, thats all. IMO, the XWW2 map Zitadelle hit the nail on the head, especially with their perfect *drool* tank cannon code. Less large towns, and a few scatered hamlets here and there...


Orange: D'OH! I knew it felt like I missed something(s) there! The Nashorn/Hornesse would be a great addition to the mod! Also, I would love to see a slightly redone Panzer IV Ausf. H to the Panzer IV Ausf G.

About the Panzer III. Seriously guys, just work out a trade with XWW2. I've talked with their devs on the servers, and they are open to the idea. The M1928 Thompson, Cromwell, and Matilda Mk. II were all mentioned as things that they would love to have in their mod. Hey! Aren't you guys re-doing the Cromwell anyways? You give them the old one, and we get a lash-up (so to speak *looks at RAD*) Panzer III!

EDIT: Bonta, I just checked WWII Vehicles.com, and they say the first SU-122s were issued in January of 1943! They also say that production of the KV-85 started in 1943, and the tank entered service in 1943, and "was available in large numbers at Kursk in July 1943."

I was not able to verify the KV-85 numbers on Wikipedia, but was able to en re the SU-122. It specificaly said that production began in 1942, and they were removed from service in 1944. The ISUs, however did indeed first enter productino in late 1943 (122). I know the SU-122 was not a magnificant tank buster, having to close pretty damn close to the target to penetrate, but whatever. It is still very necessary to the mod, non?

Oh yeah, one more thing for the devs... KV-1S!!!1one

Re: Prokhorovka
 

I was thinking that Prokhorovka (I say "Prock-hoe-rove-ka") should look something along the lines of a map on Red Orchestra whose name excapes me right now. There are a ton of little shacks skattered around the map with gates around them which are surrounded by some grain of some sort. There are dirt roads around the place and little bridges to go over the little irrigation channels. It is set sometime around the fall. If one was to touch up Prok that is how I would like it to look (make it look like some place people would live).

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Seriously guys, look at Zitadelle. If only the FH devs woke up and redid the tank code...

*lightbulb*

Time for another thread!

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Personally I love the map, great tank country and greater IL-2/Stuka hunting grounds.

http://img186.exs.cx/img186/8519/edi...ndashot9sa.jpg
When you see this rolling at you, you know you've got yourself a great map.

Now, as for general balance issues. There were 200 Panthers used during the Kursk Offensive, and while I'm not sure how many where used in the Prokhorovka area, the definatly need to stay on the map. 3 Tigers are just ownage. Remember, the Germans massed together everything they had at Kursk, the Tigers need to stay. The Ferdinand (no MG, so no elefant I think :D) rules this map in some regards. It's 88 L/71 knocks out Tigers while a Tiger only does around 4% damage to it. Too poweful? maybe, but it can still be nuked by the IL-2's and it's side and rear armor can be penetrated pretty easily.

Now as for the multiple Pzr IVH. This could use a reduction in numbers while the Russian forces could definatly use a boost in T-34's and possibly even Shermans on lend lease. The Nuka should go, IRC they were only used against heavily fortified bunkers and battleships (Rudel knocked the forward turrets off Marat with a 1000kg).

I do however beleive that the Russians should have massive trench systems (If It can be done without too much lag) with ZI-3's ahoy. They worked for months digging anti tank trenches and the like. They should have a few Artillery batteries behind the Trench system as well. There should be prefabricated hull down entrenchments for their tanks so the Germans have a much harder target to hit.

Personally the map is awsome for tank fights albeit a little unbalanced in direct fire fights between a few T-34's firing at 3 Tigers that are making an assault together. All the flags should be well entrenched and fortfied so that the Germans must make a combined push with all their tanks one point at a time. Something like a push map comes to mind so that the Russians cannot recap the points but the Germans have no set order. The Russians should have superiority in numbers and dug in positions whle the Germans have a few heavies and a few medium tanks.

But, thats just my dream map

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Oh don't get me wrong! The map is a fun play indeed. But its so inaccurate that its a definate "must go".

Re: Prokhorovka
 

I would wait until (if?) FH gets back on its feet regarding coders.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

I would enjoy the map so much more if the top base, and maybe the base just south of the russian main were gone. Just one flag (or would that be 2?) + shitloads of tanks :D

Re: Prokhorovka
 

This map rules. Especially since it has fighters now. I love blowing the il2s out of the sky with the 109. Why only one fighter per side? The only thing bad about this map is that it rarely runs on any servers.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

I don't think you get it Fu. The map may be fun, but flies in the face of the "historical accuracy" policy of the mod. It is, as we look at it, one of the least accurate maps in the entire mod.

The reason you only have one fighter is because its a tank map! Too many aircraft, and you get shit like El Al. Only a few people tank, and the rest planecamp.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

You're contradicting yourself. First you say that the map must be realistic, then you say there shouldn't be so many aircraft. July 5th 1943, the first day of the offensive, saw the largest single-day air battle in world history. Both sides brought thousands of aircraft to airfields near the salient in order to participate. These included Stukas with twin 37mm cannons, Fw190s with fragmentation bombs and rockets, IL-2s with AT guns, rockets, bombs and whatever the hell else they could hang on the wings of that thing, and more. For a Prokhorokva map to be realistic, it would have to have a dozen aircraft or more.

That's just unreasonable though. It would make mree sense to sacrifice some aspects of 'realism' (which is overblown anyway, FH isn't much of a 'realism' mod and its better off not being one) and focus on making a reasonable represenatation of a small part of the battle. Done well this makes the map a lot of fun, which is really what its all about.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

:lol:

You know how much effect those planes had on the early days of the offensive?

ZERO

The dust kicked up by the advancing and retreating tanks and other vehicles made it impossible for Jabos to identify their targets. Rather than risking killing their comrades/kamraden, they did not engage many ground forces. Don't believe me? Ask Anluschac.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

SU-122 is not the same as a ISU-122. SU-122 was based on a T-34 hull and used a 122mm howitzer. ISU-122 was based on IS-2 hull and used a 122mm A-19 gun.

This is a SU-122
http://www.zimmerit.com/main/images/su-122/su122_2.jpg

This is a ISU-122
http://www.battlefield.ru/tanks/isu122_152/isu122_7.jpg

Those are two completely different animals. I did not say the SU-122 was not at Kursk. It was and it was pretty successful at tank killing firing a HEAT round.

The KV-85 was built in 1943. But it did not see service at Kursk. Soviet Military unit records document that.

And WWiivehicles also list this
"Another source says they didn't first appear until December 1943 against Army Group North."

"148 KV-85 tanks were produced; they were sent to the front beginning in September 1943."
http://www.battlefield.ru/kv85.html


Production Period Sept.-Nov. 1943
http://www.onwar.com/tanks/ussr/fkv85.htm

Re: Prokhorovka
 

:lol:

Yeah, I know what the difference is man. Look at the initial post. I said (I)SU-122. Indicating that both the ISU-122 and SU-122 should be made by the team. Be it for this map or not, the ISUs should definatly be in Forgotten Hope!

Hmm, I guess I should have kept reading on the KV-85 then, huh? Any ideas on a mass produced AFV that the Soviets could use to effectivly even the score?

Re: Prokhorovka
 

What you guys have to realize is that the Kursk front even around Prokhorovka was alot of area. There were parts where it rained so much the ground turned to a sea of mud. There were other places where it was as dry and dusty as if during a drought.

What FH did with the sandstorm would also work well on Prokhorovka if they could do random rain squalls.

Read the day by day acount. It tells what teh weather was like.
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/vy75/dbd.htm

Re: Prokhorovka
 

The Soviets won by throwing masses of T-34's and KV-1's at the Germans. The Soviets also desperately need the ISU-152 to counter the Tiger and Ferdinand.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

As in parts of it are realistic and others are not. I do agree that those earthworks and bunkers are not the greatest, but it's better than nothing.

P.S. Let the learning continue!:bows:

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Cite.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Almost everything you wanted to know about Kursk is listed here.
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/vy75/

Re: Prokhorovka
 

I don't have to. I cited Anlushac, who has resources unknown to Achtung Panzer and even Jane's!

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Oh, I thought you were going to list a source that I didn't know of. http://forums.filefront.com/images/s...28frown%29.gif

Aircraft played a large role in Kursk, especially in the early stages. To say otherwise is folly. VIII Air Corp's Ju 88s and He 111s launched large scale carpet bombings on Allied positions on the first morning - with such a weight of fire it mattered little whether enemy could be seen, as they just bombed all over the damned place.

Rotmistrov, one of the Red Army generals in the Prokhorovka area, described the scene:

"At the same time, furious aerial combats developed over the battlefield. Soviet as well as German airmen tried to help their grond forces to win the battle. The bombers, ground support aircraft and fighters seemed to be permanently suspended in the sky over Prokhorovka."

If anyone is contending that aircraft of either side were ineffective in the early stages of the battle, they had better provide sources to back up such a claim.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Im not saying they werent used but their effectiveness was entirely dependant on the weather, visibility and the amount of smoke and dust over the battlefield. Parts were so bad that visibility was almost like night time.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Heh, XWW2's Kursk is cool but look at this

http://img59.exs.cx/img59/4471/edite...anshot24im.jpg
I think thats 45 T-34's on XWW2's Operation Zitadelle map. That is T-34's alone (not all of them mind you), their are also KV-1's and Churchills. The Germans get like 1 Tiger and 2 Panthers http://67.18.37.16/html/emoticons/huh.gif though i havn't checked if they respawn again and again like the T-34's.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

I've often killed upwards of 25 Soviet tanks, without being killed myself. Such is the life of a Tiger commander.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

I havn't had the chance to play online very much in that game :D

It seems reasonable, do any soviet tannks damage you frontally? I was playing with bots as Ruskies enjoyable it is.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Not at all. All I hear is *ping*

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Thats no reason to ditch a map so many people enjoy. Historical accuracy is overrated!

Re: Prokhorovka
 

:sitonit:

Go away.

That is a very good reason to ditch the map. Why did you download Forgotten Hope? I don't know about you, but I did it because I was fed up with the terrible code, maps, and vehicles of Vanilla BF. If you really want to go play an unrealisitc and cartoonish version of this map, then don't play FH and go back to Vanilla. Forgotten Hope is a realism mod after all!

Here are some pics of what the terrain around the map should look like. Pictures taken in the city, or around it.

http://www.vy75.dial.pipex.com/pictures/pic11.jpg
http://www.vy75.dial.pipex.com/pictures/pic12.jpg
http://www.vy75.dial.pipex.com/pictures/pic19.jpg
http://www.vy75.dial.pipex.com/pictures/pic15.jpg
http://www.vy75.dial.pipex.com/pictures/pic14.jpg

Re: Prokhorovka
 

and therein lies your madness, USMA. XWW2 is a more of a realism mod than FH is, even you can admit that...that's why you play XWW2. Yet you play FH because of the shear amount of models in it, with the pretty textures...like everyone else, new toys appeal to you. But don't delude yourself and call FH a realism mod.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

"Forgotten Hope is a modification for Battlefield 1942 that concentrates on adding both a more realistic and more enjoyable playing experience than the original BF1942 and includes many new specially designed custom maps to play in."

That's how they describe their mod. "More realistic and more enjoyable" is just the way I like it.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

FH has never said they aim for 100% realism. And people in htese forums looking for such have been directed to XWW2. People who think FH has too much realism are directed to BG42.

All 3 mods seem to have weathered the last year or two just fine. Seems there is room for all 3.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

I'll play whatever I like thanks - and I'll provide feedback too :p

I just don't think it's important. The map serves it's purpose (tank combat) well, and that's all I care about.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Except BG, and thats just because I hate that mod. With a passion.

Alright, I've calmed down now...

Daddy, FH is at the very least trying to be historically accurate. Look on the "About FH" link on the FH webpage. It says that it goes for historical accuracy. This means that the steppes should not be these hilly (yes, I know Prokorovka was located in a hilly area, but not as bad as in FH) and populated areas.

The map itself could stay, so long as the things like the German spawn is changed so that its not in a city, and that the Russian spawn is changed so thats its not a fully developed army base.

Realism, historical accuracy, whatever... Given the skill of the FH mappers, redoing this map shouldn't be too hard at all. Hell, maybe keep this one and add in new Kursk maps. Oh yeah, that was tried before... :(

OT: Takiawa, just a note about the WF Tiger. When firing smoke grenades, they should come out from both sides at the same time, not one grenade at a time.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Holy Crap 45 T-34s Thats Gonna Lag Like Hell

Re: Prokhorovka
 

I was playing with bots, it is an amazing sight to see tha move out. And I actually noticed a few more spawn places for them that I didn't find, So I would guess around 60 T-34's, some amount of KV-1, and Churchill tanks as well.

Personally, I'm just happy the Vanilla Kursk map was scrapped. IMO it was a horrible representation of it.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

I get virtually no lag on Zitadelle.

The thing is, XWW2 is not very popular, so only around 10-14 T-34s or Red tanks would be out at any given time. Of course, with skills greater than Wittmann, I engage and destroy all of them. Damn, I'm good. Went something like 84-30-3 in my Tiger, then Panther, then StuG III, then Panzer III.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Yes so lets make FH (the popular and successful mod) like XWWII (the not very popular mod)

I am not saying XWWII isn't good I have tried it and it has some very good points, it's just that going for 100% realism in a game (with computers being technologically where they are now) that incorporates as much variety in it as BF is laughable.



Make it fun and make it representative of reality but first and foremost it has to be fun. Prokhorovka is a fun well made map that plays well (if a little long) it deserves its place in the mod. I do agree it could use custom static’s though.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Hey I was just visiting a buddy of mine, and I was reading in one of his many books that the 1st version of the Panther (the D) used at Kursk would sometimes erupt into flames -- and without being penetrated! Apparently, there was a design flaw and the shock of impact would on occasion rupture somthing (eh, can't remember if it was a hose or a seal) and spew fuel all over the engine -- kaboom. Let's get that modded in!

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Your to cocky

Anways, you want to get together and play a game :D

Oh yea, I've been knocked out frontally by T-34's in that game in 1-2 hits what gives?

Re: Prokhorovka
 

why dont you all get together and figure out how to make the map just right....so many people here know so much info, if we could figure out the map making programs it would probably help make the game that much better

Re: Prokhorovka
 

I am warning those involved in this thread to watch what you say. Bashing another mod is not allowed.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Same reason I did. Realistic or not, Prokhorovka in no (nada, niente, nein, nyet) way feels like playing vanilla.

Only the vanilla maps feel like vanilla, and even some of those have been improved by FH's code and vehicles.

That's not to say that a realistic (I'll take your word for it that Prok isn't) version wouldn't be cool, but the current version is just fine, even if only renamed to something generic. There's no reason to remove it.

Also, there's other maps that could use a revamp/redo well ahead of Prokhorovka

Re: Prokhorovka
 

With good reason!

Sure, soon as I get a working gaming computer. The one I have in back at Compaq because I'm getting weird lines on the screen. This one is a craptacular rig with 16 megabytes of video ram.

Get out of the Panzer III!
Dunno... I can sit there and take round after round after round... And then still kill that bugger in 1-2 shots.

Depends on where you were hit, too. A solid strike on the mantlet will ruin your day...

Mydrall, have you ever even played that map? Really, have you? It is a perfect representation of the steppes, in my most humble of opinions. FH shouldn't copy it, but learn lessons from it rather.

Re: Prokhorovka
 

Oh sorry, I forgot to mention I was in a Tiger I, not a Pzr III. I'll listen to some Panzerlied :D that should make me invincible.