20mm shell needs some power.
 

Now, I noticed a while ago that, although they have made the 20mm shell make a purty expolsion and all, it still has no shrapnel. I tried it out in single player, and yep, I can hit right at the feet of a soldier, and they take no damage. This should be fixed in .67. It should be like the 88 and 40mm shell, it should wipe infy off the map, and be a great house clearer. Also, the same should be fixed on the 20mm AA, plus the 20mm AA should have that proximity expolsion too, as they did use proximity fuses on the ground 20mms.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

40mm and 88mm were greatly reduced in power in HE rounds, or at least it looks like they were so 20mm really should be noticeably weaker and they are

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Yeah, well, that ain't very realistic, yes? And we aren't talking just small HE capability of the 20mm here, I am saying I can pump 20 rounds of HE right next to a guy, and he won't die, or take any damage. THIS IS NOT REALISM! THe 20mm should be able to kill just by landing a few feet from a guy. It is basically a small grenade. When you put 10 of them inot a room, and don't kill the guy inside because none of the shells actually hit HIM it is not very realistic.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

depends if fh makes the shells AP or HE.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Well, they explode so that'd indicate they are HE.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Proximity fuse? On a 20mm? What the hell do you smoke?
A 20mm round has some g of explosives, even today adding in a proximity sensor there would be a delicate task, since the projectil is so tiny. And if you got your sensor and fuse in there, you don't need it anymore, since those shells have little more explosive power then china crackers. Of course they have some shrapnel, but with an explosive weight measured in single g, it won't really knock the house down (Handgrenades are around 100g)

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

IIRC Axis were never able to develop a effective proximity fused shell in WW2 anyways so no point in discussing how effective it would be.

I seem to remember a discussion on fused shells in regards to AA guns and it seems that 76mm was the smallest proximity fused shell used in WW2.

The 20mm rounds had good explosive power if they hit, but no proximity fuses.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

lol a 20mm round at the feets won't kill any soldier.
It would probably blow the feets and maybe the a part of the legs away.
So it should just take 1/3 damage if you shoot there...

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

A 20mm shell wouldn't even blow up the persons feet. It contains very little explosives and they are small so they don't make much in the way of shrapnel.
The explosive of a 20mm is used to breach something, in this case the armour or hull of a aircraft to make a slightly bigger hole than a MG would. To kill a person you would have to hit them directly.

As for proximity fuses, they were hardly used at all in ww2. Most realistic is to not have them at all.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

The US and Allies did not sue proximity fuses in ETO or MTO for fear of a unexploded shell falling into enemy hands. In the PTO most AA guns were firing over water so if a shell didnt explode it just fell into the water.

By fall of 1944 when it was obvious that the Allies would win proximity shells were introduced into ETO and MTO.

The proximity fuses were mostly used on 105mm and 155mm howitzers. There werent many Luftwaffe targets by fall of 1944 so proximity fused AA shells were not a priority.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

They dont have any splash damage in FH. Same with 30mm aircraft guns. Please remedy this.

It should be a small amount.

For all who care:

A U.S. penny is 19mm in diameter. Picture something only barely larger, and that's how thick a 20mm shell is.
Not a lot of room for fancy fuses. The major loadings for 20mm were (1940) ball, AP, and HE. Ball ammunition was just a 20mm slug. It was used in Brittish Naval AA mounts in the very early days of WW2, because it was effective and cheap.

HE is High Explosive, which was the most common AA round. The 20mm round was considered the smallest size that was applicable to add a warhead to at the time. Brittish had some experiments with 7.7mm Incendiary rounds in aircraft cannons (7.7mm is .303) but it was found that because the round was so small, it didn't make a difference in destructive power over a normal 7.7 solid core round.

AP is armor piercing, which means that a soft metal "jacket" usually surrounds an ultra-hard (tungsten, uranium, etc) core. The cores were the penetrating "submunitions" of AP rounds. Most 20mm AP guns had a penetrating core of 12.5-12.7mm, which is about the size of a .50 cal round. They weren't spectacularly effective, except in dealing with IL-2s.


As far as FH goes, 20mm and 30mm NEED splash damage. They are almost all HE rounds and should be explosive, as HE rounds were. There are a few decent exceptions, one of which was the IL-2's 23mm rounds, which were largely AP.

20mm ship AA guns
20mm Panzer II gun
20mm nose cannon on P-38
20mm HS408 cannons on Hurricaines and Spitfires (among the best in the war)
20mm Flak38/Flak30 (less tracers, not every 20mm round was a tracer)
20mm Vierling (4xFlak38)
20mm guns on the LCAC thing with tanks
20mm on BF109s/FW190s
20mm Betty turret gunner (top)
20mm on TKS tankette
23mm on IL-2 guns (should NOT have HE rounds, or one ever x rounds)
25mm Japanese AA gun mounts (note: They were usually in 3s, not sets of 2s)
30mm BF109-g nose gun

The 37mm Ostwind gun and 40mm Bofors rounds on the M-19 and stationary installations are absolutely devestating to infantry. I'm kinda curious as to why 30mm and 20mm don't have any splash, they were both also notable in their anti-infantry killing ability.

Most AA guns spend the bulk of their military service firing at infantry and giving support to allied troops against GROUND targets.

In conclusion, FH team, please give them splash damage. Not much and not insta-kill, but enough that shooting 20mm into a room makes people inside the room hurt.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Ok, ok, ok, I am sry, I made a mistake

I don't mean proximty fuses, I meant timed. Like, timed to expolde at a certain distance. The 40mm bofers used to do that ingame, for some reason it doesn't anymore.

Yes, the 20mm should have HE capabilty. One shell, near an infy, should be a kill. I have seen 20mm in action. One 20mm in a room will kill everyone in it. I even HAVE 3 20mm rounds. I can post a pic if you want, these things are big enough to put out a lot of sharpnel.

A 30mm would be even bigger. So, I am tired of starfing infy with my Me109 or Me262, and havig to hit point blank with the 20mms. I am tired of hopping into the Pz2 on Fall Weiss, only to have something that is basically a Pz1 with one mg that can take down tanks.

I WANT MY 20MM TO SPRAY BLOOD ON THE WALLS!!!!

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Maybe thats a bit too strong. 20mm really isn't that large, but 30mm has almost 4x the explosive material.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Well, no, I have seen the 20mm in firing. When it hits in a room, is does indeed put out alot of shrapnel, enough to mortally wound, if not kill, everyone in the room. The things ar big too, I got 3 of them, as I said. Hell though, a 30mm could take down a fighter plane, one hit. Those were damn good, but still, lets stay on topic, the 20mm and 30mm both need some punch for a change.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

No.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

erm....you cant deny that 20/30mm shells had a concussing/shrapnel effect Hartmann

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

No what? No splash damage because it's unrealistic or because it's too realistic?

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

You can bet they had "area" damage, but you don't want that.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

ok i'll bite, WHY NOT.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

The Typhoon for example.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

What about it?

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Is it lag or gameplay issues?

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

you saying you cant code a 20mm to have a SMALL splash.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Look at the current Typhoon on Breakthrough for example. It's deadly to tanks, just like it should be. Now imagine it firing little handgrenades. That means, pilots will go hunting single infantrymen. Realistic? Not exactly. Sometimes you have to sacrifice realism in order to archieve realism.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Well, you couldn't code them to do less splash damage? It wouldn't necessarily have to be completely realistic; they don't do realistic damage to tanks either.

Besides, the planes did strafe infantrymen too.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Yeah, groups of them, but theydidn't go out of their way to kill that poor guy running around alone.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

if i just read that right, Hartmann just said that PLANES DO NOT STRAFE THE GROUND. put down the crackpipe now.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

You did not ;)

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

yes..and a pilot in FH will chose to strafe a group of infantry over a single man...unfortunatley FH doesnt have the numbers *max 32 in server* or mass teamwork to get groups running around...although occasiounally u do see it.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Panzer II didn't fire ap rounds?

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

I can somewhat understand Hartmanns logic, although I really have hard time to.

The infantry does have more cover in real life and are not so easily distinguished from the ground because of undergrowth and such. A pilot would not attack a single infantryman either in real life, BUT:

You have to put it in the FH scale. A single infantryman did not capture an enemy position in real life, while in FH it's easy and a one infantryman can decide the outcome of the game. So, I'd give the cannons splash damage. Not too lethal, but maybe like 1/3 of health from close range.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

It had both.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Correct. In real life there were no single infantrymen running around by themselves capturing "flags"
it doesn't have to be completely realistic deadly area effect damage, but if it doesn't have any, it's basically a machine gun that can kill tanks.....the .50 cal kills infantry with one shot too......50 cal is about 12.7 mm

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Offtopic, but the funny thing is, that .50 cal doesn't even necessarily kill people with one shot :|

I've seen a picture of person shot with 12.7mm machinegun. Limbs ripped off, holes of diameter of five centimeters through him..

I've also multiple times shot a person with the 30mm in Go-229 and see him survive.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

well it would be difficult to fight in that condition anyway ^^

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

I meant in FH :)

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

BTW, Hartmann, there are many instances of BOMBERS unloading full bomb loads to kill solitary infantry during the Winter War.

Plus the point is not just the Typhoon and Me109 and such 20mms, I am saying a tank like the Pz2 becomes a Pz1 that can kill tanks. THe whole big thing about the Pz2 is that is can fire 1-2 shots of 20mm into a room, and kill everyone in it. This is how I want it to be. The thing was an infy killer.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Panzer II and AA guns should get splash damage, but I think he's right about the planes.

Anyone play DC Beta 2? The A-10? Youd point somewhere remotely close to the enemy base, tap the trigger, and everything would die. Too much splash. Now think about the ROF of planes like the FW190 and ME262. Same thing. Just point at enemy spawn point from out of view disatance and fire away, you'd kill people way too easy.

On the other hand.. you kinda have to have it for realism.

So I purpose a solution.

Give P2 and AA guns splash normally.
Planes, every 10 20mm rounds could have a small amount of splash damage. Not nearly as much as a grenade.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Well, 20mm shells on fighters were treasured commodities, you only have 5 seconds firing them or some such, 100-200 rounds max.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Treasured commodities? I think not. They were among the most common fighter armorments. And in the case of the FW190, 750 rounds is a lot of firepower even if it only equates to about 8 seconds of fire. You used the smaller MGs like 50 cals, 13mm and 15mm to shoot at targets you thought you might not hit, and you used 20mm when you knew you'd hit.

The Hurricaine Ds of Brittain had 2 .303 MGs armed with HE rounds (7.7mm.. not much) and 2 40mm guns for tankbusting. The thing was, the .303 guns had the same muzzle velocity and trajectory as the 40mm guns. The Hurricaine pilots would use the HE rounds (which were notably useless against any sort of thing they wanted to actually damage) for spotting. They could see the explosion when they hit, so they'd fire away and line up the shot with the .303s and then fire just a few 40mm rounds after getting on target. They had over a 50% hit rate (which is phenominal, from the air). The Hurricane Ds were later phased out in favor of Typhoons with rockets for anti-tank usage, which had a 2% hit rate, MUCH lower. The payload was much greater then the 40mms though, and the psychological effect was also considered worth the low hit percentage. Typhoons scared the CRAP out of Axis tanks.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

I'd like to see tiny and weak splash damage. So, if a 20mm round hit 3 inches from the foot of an infantry it would do some damage. Anyway, fighters already go around killing anything they can see so Major Hartmann's point isn't valid. Hell, bombers go around using a bomb or 2 to often kill a single infantry. Happens to me enough.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

A 20mm round a few feet from a soldier would kill. A 20mm round 3 INCHES from the FOOT of an soldier would blow his leg off. These things are powerful, even if they are small. It should be an insta-kill anywhere withen like 5-7 feet.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

That's just insane though
If that was done billions would run to get an aircraft and then just strafe infantry and rack up hundreds of kills

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Question is, what are the chances a pilot will go after one little infy, or that tank over there? Most would chose the tank. Plus, remember, this is how it was, the 20mm could own all infy. Ever seen saving private ryan? Remeber when the 20mm goes into action? It was realistic, that thing could kill infy like flys to a bug zapper. Also, no, the fighter pilot won't get hunderds of kills, he will get shot down long before then. All this will do it make it a bit eaiser to kill infy. Trust me, you don't have to hit exactly on to kill a soldier with a little grenade.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

I can understand increasing splash damage on any ground units that fire 20mm rounds, but do we really need to up the splash damage on aircraft that fired 20mm rounds? Let's atleast allow infantry the opportunity to kill each other :D

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Please do not use Saving private Ryan as any kind of historic reference. Or any movie for that matter. They are not historicaly accurate.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Lol, yeah, I know. SPR wwas about as realistic as the Lion King. But, that part I did indeed find realistic, and basically only that part.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Whats easier to kill? Infantry or tanks? Oh yeah, infantry. More kills for me!

I think a VERY small amount of splash damage would be appropriate. DC_Realism gave a very very small amount of splash damage to heavy MGs like the PKM and M240/60. What it does is simulates cover fire. Dive behind sandbags, and he shoots above you, you get very slightly hurt. It actually adds a lot of atmosphere and tension to the fights. Note, its such a small amount of splash that it rarely kills anyone.

20mms should have this. 23mm could be AP and this wouldn't be a problem. 30mm should have a bit more.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Thing is, this isn't a 50cal. This would be a small hand grenade coming at you. Make it an insta kill, but haveing a much smaller radius then a grenade. Still, when I pump 10 into a room, it should kill everyone in that room.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Small handgrenade? With a charge of 1-2 gramms?
Let's look at a german stock handgrenade: 165g of explosives, and the manual says shrapnell wounds in a radius of 10-15m.
Notice something? A damn firecracker has a charge of about 1-2gramms.....