Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Exactly my sentiments. BTW, the 20mm shells in Saving Private Ryan only did damage to infantry it hit, and seemed to be AP. It was able to hit the tank beside infantry and the guy was unaffected, although he got minced when he was hit.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

I think 23mm+ weapons should get a slight splash damage. Maybe so, that a very close hit would do ~33% damage to infantry, but almost no damage as the range increases.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

The idea that a 20mm shell should be able to kill within more than a few inches or so is insane, like Hartmann said, a 20mm round has a charge of 2 grams, basically take a large firecracker and throw it at something, see if it blows the living crap out of something.

The shell itself only weighs about a 1/3 of a pound, possibly if one 20mm shell flew into an occupied outhouse and exploded it could kill everything in the room, but it would take more than one or two to kill a guy if your trying to kill him with splash, sure you might cut him up with shrapnel (about as thick as a piece of a coke can) but you'd be better off to hit him directly, in reality the 20mm can do wonders against troops due to their high rate of fire, most of them are around 200-300rds per minute.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Yeah, and the swedish sold us shells that were a millimeter too large.
You've been watching too much of the movie! :P

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Look, I have seen the 20mm in actual use. When this thing blows up, it spews little bits of sharpnel everywhere, with enough force to kill. I even personally own 3 20mm rounds, they are big, they will kill you if they hit nearby. This is why I am saying it should like a tiny grenade, not as large of a radius for insta-kill, but large enough to clear a room after 2-3 shots. And why can it do wonders due to it's "high" rate of fire? 200-300 sheels per mintue is nothing. Most mgs are 900rpm, if not more. What gives it power is that you don't have to hit to kill.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

20mm HE rounds may only have 2 grams of explosives but they are High Explosives (HE) so comparing them to a firecracker is way, way off. An M203 is only 40mm and it has a 5 meter casualty radius. So a 1 to 2 meter injury radius would not be over exaggerating the blast of a 20mm shell. 30mm should be 2 to 3 meters. No insta-kills without a direct hit but damage for sure (35% damage sounds reasonable to me).

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

that seems about right....then you can really notice a difference between a 20-30 mm cannon and a .50 cal.... it doesn't have to kill instantly, but at least a third of damage is realistic and better. I mean, they're not called HE rounds without a reason ^^

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Maybe 1 meter kill, 2-3 meter wound. This will make the 20mm finally a good anti infy gun!:D :D :D

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

HORRIBLE IDEA. That would turn all maps into total plane rape. For example, imagine the maps "Supercharge" and "Desert Rose". Very little cover for infantry and it's very easy to hit through the windows of the houses. Hitting a jeep would kill everyone inside from one hit. You would only have to aim at the general direction of the infantry.

I'd give the rounds a slight splash damage from the area of ~15-33% when hitting extremely close, so that they wouldn't survive from two guns hitting around them simultaneously or survive from one round hitting them, which is extremely frustrating with flak guns. You hit them right on, which should be a kill in real life no matter what, but they live to shoot you down. With splash damage the second round hitting next to them would finish them off.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

What plane rape? I don't see any one strafing now, this won't effect it one bit.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Have you not played the early versions of DC? You'd know what a huge splash damage can do.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

40mm dosent have 2x the charge as 20mm.

Charges are mass, not width. 30mm has around 4x as much charge and destructive power as 20mm, and 40mm has around 10x.

20mm isn't huge, but its enough for some small splash damage.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Give a 20mm huge splash?

Why not give the 50 cal huge splash too,

A 20mm's alternate designation is .70 cal to put that in perspective.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

But 20mm rounds are actually HE, and your perspective means little, as .50 cal is 12.7mm bullets.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Ive seen a real 20mm HE fired long ago. I recall it blasting a moderate amount of shrapnel 1-3m diameter, the area first few inches from the hit was heavily damaged by shrapnel. I think they should make a 20mm shell in FH hits a targer few inches away from a man, hes should be dead or atleast badly wounded. if the shell hits about a meter away i think he should be moderatly wounded.

I got some picture of 20mm damage on planes.

In pic A, a 20mm round from a German FW190 gave a direct hit on the ball turret of a B-17, the gunner was killed instantly (probably a internal explosion)

In pic B, a 20mm shell hit the faceplate of a ball turret and exploded, the gunner was badly wounded but survived. (external explosion, faceplate probably saved his life)

In pic C, a Japanese 20mm shell(s) hit on the plane (i dint get any more info on that pic)http://xs14.xs.to/pics/05055/20mmDamage.JPG

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

The above is the way it should be done, some people seem to think a 20mm should blow you apart when it lands 10 or so feet away from you. You obviously won't be feeling to special but you'd likely live. Now something like the M203 would obviously kill at 5m as it has 10x or more bursting charge. I think that if the shell lands within a foot or so it should outright kill you, but past about a meter it should mess you up. It would give them a bit more 'umph' but would prevent pilots from just skimming over a base with 20mm and taking down people like crazy.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

I fired and trained with many weapons in the army. Firing a 20mm next to a target does sweet fa. I know because I shot it at a roo and it was only direct hits that seemed to make it care ;).

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

check your math. 25.4mm * 0.70" = 17.8mm

20mm / 25.4 mm = 0.79"

40mm, 20mm, 12.7mm and 7.62mm
http://www.destroyers.org/Ord-Images/AmmoSizes.jpg

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksd...9figure286.jpg
MEDICAL DEPARTMENT UNITED STATES ARMY IN WORLD WAR II

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Never said 20mm has 1/2 the charge of 40mm, not even close. Hence the suggested 1 to 2 meter 35% damage figure compared to the 40mm's 5 meter 100% damage figure......?

I personally lean towards a 1 meter 35% splash. This means in order to kill a person 3 20mm shells need to exploded within 1 meter of a person. This will not lead to "plane rape."

I would say a 3 meter 35% splash for 30mm too.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

IDEAL WW2 FIGHTER ARMAMENT

the 20mm apparently carried 10 times more explosives than what we've used in this thread: around 20 grams.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Keep in mind that "20mm" was not a standard throughout all countries in the war. There are Japanese 20mms (very effective) and Brittish 20mm, U.S. 20mm, Russian 20mm, German 20mm. Each one has a varying size and muzzle velocity and effectiveness.

The variances increased even more as sizes went up. Bofors 40mm was a lot more powerful then 2pdrs (larger shells, MUCH higher muzzle velocity).

I don't think we'd need to code anything so complicated in FH, but we should have small, small amounts of splash damage for 20mm and about 1/3 the deadliness of a hand grenade for 30mm.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

would just like to specify that the number above is for the german 20mm 92g M-Geschoss. image included in this post has been open in my browser for the past three hours. , and shows exactly what you mention. the interesting ones are (from left) #3, #4, #6, #7, #8, #9

another observation i made - the 30mm (german auto-cannon) has far more powder in it, than behind it!
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Feb2004cart%20002w.jpg

*Battle of Britain

Same medical report
out of 50 casualties wounded or killed by either 20, 13 or 7.92mm fire (german) 37 were wounded by 20mm and 7 killed. wounded and killed combined from 13 and 8mm was 6.

there are also pictures of fragments from 13mm HE taken from fatal wounds.

i would suggest looking through those reports. it helps you put various threats to air crew into perspective, what some of them went through, and so on. but at the same time i would have to warn you that this is a medical report - not all of the pictures are completely safe.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Totally depends on what ammunition. A Minengeschoss round has ~18g PETN.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

No? The germans never had proximity fuses for 20mm AA guns in WW2 according to my sources. And those same sources say that 20mm rarely had proximity or timed fuses until just recently in 2000 with the development of the OICW. Its much too small a round to warrant an expensive system like that.
But I ENTIRELY agree that 20mm needs SPLASH DAMAGE and I've been griping about it for several patches. What's the point of 20mm if it dosen't have splash damage? The point OF 20mm was to have explosives in a rapid-fire cannon. 30mm MK109/MK103 needs it too, as well as 25mm Hotchkiss guns (Japan AA). The Vierling should be a horror.
Just bumping this.

Harmann, you know as well as I that these weapons had a radius of lethality just like any other explosive. It may have been small, but in the case of 25mm-30mm, it got a lot larger. Giving these weapons NO splash damage is completely removing the point of them. It is realistic and called for to give 20mm some splash damage. That's what it was, was a teensy explosive. For it to not explode is silly. 30mm should have a considerable radius, not necessarily lethal, but damaging.

Re: 20mm shell needs some power.
 

Ironically it seems most 20mm used in WW2 were originally based on the Oerliken design.