As me and me lad, Oddball_E8 mentioned in another thread we were unable to kill a panzer IV using the 88. I can't seem to recollect which map it was, but Oddball fired a stationary 88 at a pzkpfw IV point blank at it's front without killing it. Later, on the same map, I fired one shot at the side of another panzer IV with the 88 and it kept on going.
Now, this is just plain wrong....no chance in hell that a panzer IV would survive in any of those two scenarios.
//A_Rude_Gesture
98% chance the 88 was in flak mode rather than AP mode.
Yes, but the fact remains, 88mm on a Tiger vs Sherry anywhere = 1 shot kill. So what happened to this realism mod? Look, Im going to be honest. Theres just two things that piss me off in 0.61, and they are:
1. Suicide planes. Which were supposed to be fixed!
2. Weak pathetic 88mm on the friggen Tiger!
Whats next?
We make the King Tiger an equal of a IS2?
Or maybe a Sherman as strong as a Tiger?
Oh wait, pardon me, a Sherman can kill a Tiger. A Sherman called "Firefly", and theres no friggen difference between it and a Tiger, except for the fact a "Firefly" moves faster, has a turret move faster and guess what, it has magical friggen armor.
if you dont remember sloped armored get a deflection hp boost. just accept it
"Ask them, US and Brits didnt do squat in WW2, it was won by the Soviet all by themselves versus the entire Germans Army and they did it while standing on one leg and with a arm tied behind their back. Western Europe, North Africa, Italy were all side shows" -unknown poster
Yes, but the fact remains, 88mm on a Tiger vs Sherry anywhere = 1 shot kill. So what happened to this realism mod? Look, Im going to be honest. Theres just two things that piss me off in 0.61, and they are:
1. Suicide planes. Which were supposed to be fixed!
2. Weak pathetic 88mm on the friggen Tiger!
Whats next?
We make the King Tiger an equal of a IS2?
Or maybe a Sherman as strong as a Tiger?
Oh wait, pardon me, a Sherman can kill a Tiger. A Sherman called "Firefly", and theres no friggen difference between it and a Tiger, except for the fact a "Firefly" moves faster, has a turret move faster and guess what, it has magical friggen armor.
Why dont we just stop bullshiting ourselfs.
What's your problem with Kingtiger and IS2?
The Sherman has only one place where it can survive an 88mm hit, and that be the front. Every other place one hit will do. I can only repeat again and again: We use the weakest AT ammo for each gun, because of the limited distances on BF maps.
The Fireflys gun is a little bit weaker than the 88L56, and it can be killed by even a PanzerIV without mouch trouble. You have to keep in mind that the Firefly is the best the western allies have atm. If a Firefly couldn't kill a Tiger (What it was built for), the western Allies wouldn't have no tank able to encounter a Tiger
BTW, what do you mean by "cheap ass"?
Do you mean they spent the time to find a good hiding place and wait patiently for a lone tank to come by?
No, what I mean with "cheap" is that I also considered the Tiger to be a powerfull and dangerous tank which should be feared. But in combat you can easyly get wasted by any standard enemy tank with ease because you can“t line up your gun, and they know it.
But good tipp with turning the torso. I didn“t think of that...
I find the current Tiger much more realistic and gameplay wise than the 0.5 one. It actually has weakspots and doesn't feel like a huge fucking solid piece of metal. It's still very effective in skilled hands, you just can't expose its side plating anymore to tanks, that were built to destroy it and therefore you have to be more aware of your surroundings. Don't let yourself to be surprised. Yesterday on Valirisk, I pulled 15/0 and 7/0 with it, until getting killed by group of bazookamen assisted by T34/85.
And another great thing about it is, that I actually get to play Valirisk on axis too. The spawnspot isn't surrounded by campers either and both times I got the tank, it was just laying there with no one around. I'd actually like to get to play Valirisk on Russia sometimes too, in 0.6.
But I agree, Sherman surviving from hit in the frontal armor doesn't feel right, not that it really matters as long as it isn't a Firefly. The regular Sherman can't do shit against the Tiger.
The new Tiger damage models were one of my favorite improvements in 0.6.
Last edited by MkH^; March 21st, 2004 at 05:25 AM.
It's just good that the Tiger isn't godlike anymore. Granted, it shouldn't be underpowered either, but in 0.5 it was just too powerful, more than it should be. That much is obvious. And as for turning the torso to face the enemy instead of turning the turret, well, that's a very basic tactic everyone should know.
Pzgranate 39 (which I guess is the one modeled for the tiger) was able to penetrate 120mm armour at 100 meters and 110mm armour at 500 meters if it were sloped 30 degrees from vertical. The firefly, if I remember correctly, had 108mm frontal armour sloped at app. 45 degrees from vertical, giving it better deflection properties that 30 degrees of vertical. So 2 shots for a frontal kill with 88mm KwK 36 L/56 seems fair to me.
if you dont remember sloped armored get a deflection hp boost. just accept it
IRL there was the little thing called normalization and T/d
When the T-34 came out the Germans were using a hard ballistic cap to try and use brute force and velocity to penetrqte the armor. But the hard cap AP round just richocheted off the sloped armor.
It was then discovered that if you used a soft metal cap that when the round hit the soft metal would drag on the sloped surface and the friction would actually change the trajectory of the shell and pull it into the armor flat, thus "normalizing" the sloped armor effect.
That is why almost all German AP rounds were later Armor Piercing Composite Ballistic Cap. Soft ballistic cap AP rounds are not as effective against vertical armor because the cap has a tendancy to get crushed rather than penetrate.
T/d is thickness divided by diamater. If a tank hull is 75mm thick and vertical and a 50mm round there is no chance of penetration. But you can dial up the velocity to the point that the 50mm round can penetrate.
A 75mm round, all things being equal, has a 50/50 chance of penetrating. The thickness of the armor equals the diamater of the shell and they cancel each other out. But by dialing up the velocity just a little bit the 75mm round can penetrate.
A 88mm round travelling at the same velocity as the 75mm round hitting the 75mm armor is larger in diamater than the thickness of the 75mm armor. All things being equal the 88mm round should pentrate.
And with sloped armor if the diamater of the round incoming is a certain ratio larger than the thickness of the armor then the sloped effect doesnt even work.
And the Sherman with its 55mm sloped armor was a pig waiting to be roasted.And we all know the Germans designed excellent high velocity guns and had excellent AP ammo. Even a PzIV F2 and later had no problems killing a Sherman.
If you look at past posts I was one of the people that said the Tiger should not be changed.
What I asked for was that the guns that could kill Tigers be strengthened to do so, which FH did. But I also said the Sherman should not be made stronger.
By making the Sherman able to survive a direct hit from a 88mm to the front armor you have done is made the Sherman a Western Allied uber tank that a tanker can now take toe to toe against a Tiger and in real life a Sherman was meat on the table for a Tiger.
The Firefly was never used to lead the charge against the Tigers, the Firefly was used from cover in a overwatch position almost like a Tank Destroyer.The German gunners were ordered to look for and kill any long barreled Shermans with a muzzle brake, hence the reason why you see the Shermans with fake muzzle brakes and cammo barrels.
In my humble opinion the 88mm gun now acts like the 75mm L/48 firing PzGr 39 should act. I am of the opinion that the 75mm long barrels as used in the PzIV F2, PzIV H , and the PAK40 are wimpy.
And for the record you can kill a Sherman/Firefly in one shot to the frontal armor. Aim for the differential cover on the lower front hull.
And if you want to leave the Sherman model as is then I officially ask that the Sherman models receive the applique armor like the sandbags, tank tracks, logs, etc. that were attached to the hull by desperate tank crews to reduce the chance of a AP round or faust penetrating.
Last edited by Anlushac11; March 21st, 2004 at 07:26 AM.
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