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Thoughts on Virgina Tech How does this happen!? Worst school shooting in U.S. History. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Its disgusting...truly is. When I saw that on the news this morning my heart broke..so many lost lives. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Terrible tragedy, alot of hurting families today... |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech The "how" is a question for the psychologists and such. Ever since Charles Stuart Whitman climbed the Texas Tower way back when, the idea of mass killing has entered the communal consciousness. I don't recall any such incidents on such a scale before Whitman did his little number back in 1966. Since then, however, it's become depressingly common. Oh, I imagine that an individual's chance of being killed by a mass murderer is vanishingly small. Still, hardly a week goes by that we don't hear of a "work-related" shooting (as we're calling "going postal" now....), or some other case of a loony going over the edge and deciding to take a bunch more with him. Since I'm in campus law enforcement, this is a prime area of concern. College students like to believe they live in a safe and protected environment, but an incident like this can occur at any time. We train for them; we do the "response to an active shooter" training, and we now have patrol rifles (M-16 variant) to give the squad a leg up fire-power wise. I wonder what sort of police presence they have up there? What the response was? It'll all come out on CNN no doubt |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech I also don't get how this person supposedley killed somebody in their drom 2 hours before the rest of the shootings, he went 2 hours unchecked, and al the students were unaware. Supposedly though, don't quote me, it's all very skeptical right now, nobody knows if the person is even a student. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Have many friends that go there, and I transfer there this Fall. This is affecting my community very much as well. A damn shame. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech I work in campus security too, and I think things are going to be different when I go back to work. We don't worry too much about these things at my school (Queen's University), but you never know. Terrible stuff. People (Jack Thompson, mostly) are already putting political spin on it, and we don't even have a final body count. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech I know one way it can happen, easy. The shooting in Quebec really got me thinking about what can push people over the edge, especially if you are depressed. I was at one point in such a state and let me tell you if you aren't diagnosed and helped with psychiatry and medicine, especially soon if you're really low, you start thinking some pretty dark thoughts. These thoughts can even scare you particularly after you come out of the hole you were in. You end up not caring about others and yourself. Problematically, most of the time these feelings can also be severely aggravated by social problems ie. regarding hatred of certain students, staff or other people in their lives via insults, bias, physical violence or other negative things which can ultimately be the straw which brakes the camel's back. Now there are a multitude of things which can do this but I think that since we're talking about school shootings these reasons are the most relevant. I know this partially first hand. Given a lot of people whom you hate, a very depressed state of mind and a gun well it speaks for itself doesn't it. I can understand that if the assailants refused or didn't want to go get help it would be their fault however part of me goes out to the assailants, particularly at the Quebec shooting, since some are known to be depressive and aren't checked up on. Just like any other condition diagnosis and help can, and I think should, also come from family, friends and loved ones on top of one's self. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying what the shooters do was right but I think some of them were just reaching out to tell the community that that is how they feel and are avenging their feelings from lack of care and love. Not everything is always one sided and I think that these people might not be as negative as portrayed and may be beacons of standing up for one's self, though extreme and a wake up call to have more psychiatric help at schools, work place and abroad. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech This is a horrible tragedy...:( :( PS :It's not Charles Stuart Whitman, it's Charles Joseph Whitman... |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech I was just thinking the same thing as Cola. People will probably lay the fault on everything ranging from videogames to music but not the reasons stated by Cola. Which is a damn shame. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech I think the saddest part is how the school neglected(or even new for that matter) to inform the students of the first shooting, leaving the assailant to prey on 30 more 2 hours later.... Its absolutely shocking at how something like this could happen, and what could have been done... As for Jack Thompson well....he just keeps sinking lower and lower, a disgrace for a human being... |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech That's my thoughts zuiquan. I just hope campuses don't become like concetration camps a result, but something needs to be done. I know what you're saying Coca, but obvisouly, no matter what your inner problems are, nobody can be justified in mudrering 30 people. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Sadness for the poor bastards who were shot or who had someone shot, loathing for the shitbag who did it, and scorn for the cowards who are inevitably going to draw capital out of it. We all know it's the fault of TV, guns, video games, etc. and the only way to stop it is to strip-search students when entering campus, do background checks and urine checks on everyone, and root out the subversives among us. Or just be sad and get on with things. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Or the legislature of the Commonwealth of Virginia could reconsider this bill, and make us that qualify to carry concealed firearms feel more comfortable. We could also actually have a fighting chance at self-defense in such circumstances as these heinous violence sprees. But unfortunately just the opposite will likely happen, and once again more gun control imposed on my fellow Virginians. http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658 |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Chances are the murderer had a legal gun, giving you teh ability to carry is a double edged sword. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Oh great, I see where this is going. Otherwise he just would have had legal fertilizer or legal gasoline or a legal humvee (how many traffic deaths per year compared to gun deaths?) The temptation to blame something is just too strong to pass up, isn't it. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech You make me feel so small! |
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The first thing I do when I wake up is check www.drudgereport.com to see what is going on in the world...I'll tell you now this is not what I was keen on waking up to...it truely sickens me.... |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Drudge Report, Little Green Footballs, WorldNetDaily, Moveon, Huffington Post and sites like that, from whatever side of the uninformed, radical political spectrum with an issue, are _not_ exactly what you want to be checking for independent, unbiased news. And yes, I agree, let's stay away from that particular crock of an argument, it's bad mojo. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech My work had ABC news on, so I saw this story about three times. The image that sticks out most in my mind is the guy in the brown patrolman jacket running around with his fancy AR-15, looking for Charlie in the treeline or somethin. I couldn't help but think, 'Where the fuck were you!?' I'll be damned if the fucker even SAW a cop before he blasted himself. You're telling me in the time it took him to hunt down and waste 30 people the cops couldn't find him? Bullshit. This is what pissed me off about Columbine too. The police could here the shots from the Cafeteria, could see the open fucking door! Yet not one of them, not one! Did anything but maintain the perimater. Not one of them had the fucking guts to risk their lives for fucking kids man. Not one. Isn't this their fucking job? Why they fucking joined? To protect? Fucking cowards. Some pudgy asshole in kevlar with a high tight hair cut and a fancy looking rifle ain't worth shit. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech If there had ever been a shooting at my old highschool, I would just sneak to my house which was about a 2 minutes jog away, grab my rifle, drive back up and kill the guy. I'd prob manage to do all that before the cops even showed up, heh=/ |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech No, actually, you'd probably find a nice place to hide until it all blew over. Maybe, if you were gutsy you'd hang out and help over people to get under cover. Maybe, if you were in the middle of it, you'd be really gutsy and get injured people out or do something like this guy: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nat...orld-headlines Even if you did happen to have a gun on you, you'd probably be too rattled to shoot straight; if you were lucky you wouldn't hurt anyone around you (note, I'm in no way condemning the idea of law-abiding citizens packing and unloading on assholes like this. I think it'd be a great way to help clean out the gene pool. But I wouldn't trust you, or me, or most of my fellow law-abiding citizens to have enough training to have much realistic chance of doing a Jack Bauer on some gun-toting wingnut bent on mayhem.) Let's get real... |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Fuzz', belive it or not, as startling as it may be, people exist in the world who can acctually function under real pressure. Not everyone is limited to 'lie down and die' and 'fucking piss my self and cry and scream as I take aim.' Charlie Whitman is a prime example. Houston didn't lie down and take it. People went home, got their rifles, and fired back. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Mudra does reanact, but I think having blanks fired at you from old time rifles, is a lot different then a 9mm with real bullets being fired pointblank at you across a hall, I doubt muddy you could properly use a rifle in a school, much less fire first, plus the dangers of you havng a gun would more then likely get your ass killed by the cops because how would they know you were a good guy. The whole scenario is unrealistic, nice thought, but you'd be better surviving and helping others get the fuck out. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Yes, and they're not bloody likely to be lurking on a gamer board. If you'll re-read my post, you'll realize that I don't discount individuals' ability to fight back. I think the pure thread of this is a good thing, and as a normal individual, the thought of being held terrorized by some shitbag with a gun without a way of hitting back boils my blood. I'm just being realistic about the average guy's level of nerves, training, coordination, whatever, and the resulting unlikelihood of Joe Schmo off the street's being able to effectively fight back (although he may well; as you correctly imply, people are sometimes capable of surprising things.) Maybe Mudra, or you, or I would coolly walk up behind the guy, bean him with a chair and kick his ass with a smirk, maybe we'd piss ourselves and cower in a corner and cry for mommy, how the hell would you know unless you've been there? I've seen so much empty bravado degenerating into pathetic buckling under when confronted with real stress that I'm pretty cynical about "I'll kill him" tough guy silliness. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Actually, thing is, its just not in my personality to calmly wait for death. I'd rather go out with a fight, heh, in all seriousness. If I know I'm going to die...I'd put up resistence. As for staying calm under fire, my highschool was open air, no indoor parts, so I could be 200 yards away calmly looking down a rifle:P BUt in all seriousness, I would put up a fight somehow...I'm just seriously not of the personality to calmly take it. Once when we had some armed bank robbers run onto campus, but we didn't know that, the school just went into lockdown, and we all through it was a shooter. I was by the door of my classroom with a knife (it was a bio lab class) ready to stab someone. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech It was Austin, not Houston, I'm frankly disappointed in you, comrade. |
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I would personally jump/climb/lower myself out of the first room insight, and I would advice other people to do so as well. I'd go against advice and tell other people to NOT hide in the building as the chances of you getting corned by the Hitman are bigger and if the guy really wants to get inside the class room, he will ( a report said that some students blocked a door when the saw the gunman approching, the gunman tried to open up the door but couldn't and responded so by shooting trough the door ) get inside. I'd say; get out of the building as quickly as possible, and leave the heroics up the the Swat officer with the kevlar vest and the Mp5 machinegun. In the chance that you do get confronted with the Gunman, you could always stand up and fight, but I think this would only serve as a last-resort measure. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech I think %90 of people who are facing a maniac with a SMG/AR in his/her hands would simply either pass out,freeze or run like hell.The first two is more probable imo. My personal experience:back in 2004 i had an arguement with a man in a bar, i was about to punch him in the face but he said "i have 14 more friends with me right here" and i was like "WTF?Will he show me his cellphone or something" instead he showed me something hidden inside his coat(yup just like in the movies) and i was literally paralyzed after seeing that pistol.Even it is nothing compared to what those poor ppl experienced |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech I think large campuses like this should have atleast one, or a couple of, armed "fast response" officers, permanently stationed. Like air marshalls on airplanes. Might have saved a few lives if they had. It hard to say how people will react in a situation like this. But the words "Lets roll" spring to mind. So anyone is as likey to be a hero, as they are to be frozen with fear. The same person may act one way in one circumstance and another way the next. It really depends on your state of mind at the time. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech it's a terrible events, my condoleance to the familly. It always touch deeply especially when they had the same age as you:( There is really something wrong there and i hope people will finally try to do something to stop that. It's just become crazy ! WTH a guy have been able to shoot 30 people. How is it possible ? I hope there will be a real debat about that and not a " css is responsible". Some people are going to complain that the debat will certainly aim the weapons laws. But bloody hell i think it's time for america to realize that a 200 years law is no more acceptable. Stop saying that only the guy must be blamed. Otherwise It's like you're saying that all americans are retarded and psychopathe. If he didn't get a gun easily he will never have the idea to do this kind of massacre just to suicide him-self. I'm sick to see such a waste just because morons need to get weapons to feel like real men. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Gun availability has nothing to do with this, he could have made a bomb too, used poison, used a knife, sword, used a vehicle, arson, pushed them out windows... If someone is bent on murder, they will find a way. edit: the arguement could be made.. that if everyone carried a gun he wouldnt have been able to kill 30 people. He would have been shot emmediately. |
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Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech lol i knew the window analogy was pushing it :) |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech As I said originally, this is my line of work. We don't have even close to a complete picture of what went on. However, looking at what we know, it doesn't appear to me that much might have been done differently. The original shooting at the dormitory was to all appearances a domestic shooting. In fact, a "person of interest" was the boyfriend of the deceased female. This subject was located and was being interrogated by another local police agency. There was no reason whatever to expect that there might be further developments. The university considered "locking down" the campus, but that's a tall order too. 26,000 people on campus, and over 100 buildings. Apparently the shooter (a S. Korean national and a student) arrived at the scene of the mass shooting 2 hours later, while classes were in session. He chained the doors to the building shut. Then began his rampage. Although the shooting must have felt like an eternity to the victims, it probably only took a few minutes before the guy shot himself. Meanwhile, virtually the entire police department was all the way across the rather large campus at the scene of the first shooting. By the time there was any response of the police to the scene (and confronted with doors they could not open without tools), it was over. Responding to such incidents is always difficult, and not as straightforward as charging in with guns blazing. Is there more than one shooter? Might he have booby-trapped the building? (ala Columbine) Is this a deranged lunatic or an organized terrorist event? and so on... The police response to Columbine was justly criticized, but they were following established procedure. "Secure the perimeter and wait for SWAT", with their special equipment, body armor, and weapons. This resulted in even more tragedy at Columbine, and police departments have changed their training and response to such incidents. Now, the first four on the scene go in and attempt to engage the shooter. (you need four for the standard "diamond" formation.) Obviously, this was not possible at VT as they had to gain entry first. (I saw footage of a SWAT guy carrying a large bolt-cutter) I don't want to come across too strongly, but I wonder how many people besides the police officers are going to go "in" to such situations? We are expected to go in when everyone else is running "out". I am fully prepared to go in and "engage" (to use the euphemism) the gunman. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Also, there will be alot of criticism as to why they didnt lock down V.T. The only thing that would have affected is who got killed. Inevitably, in an effort to lay blame, this will be the focus. At a university, locked down or not, there is no shortage of people. He would have found anybody to kill. Also, please dont hold me to this, Im not sure if his name has been released, but supposedly, this is the douchebag. http://vt.facebook.com/photos.php?id=6202368&l=d1b29 |
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I'm not saying it is the only reason, but it sure would have taken little more effort if he hadn't had a gun just laying in his closet. So you suggest that maybe he had made a bomb, out of what? Some fertilizers? How many of you actually know how to make a bomb out of fertilizers? I guess it's little bit more difficult that just loading a clip and pulling the trigger. So what else? Poison, where the hell would he get that? Last time I checked there they didn't sell nerve gas at the local supermarket. A kife or a sword? Ok, maybe he would have injured two or three people before the rest would have stopped him (It's little bit easier to fight someone with a knife that someone with a gun). |
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Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Yes, I wish some students had had the guts of Liviu Librescu, the Va. Tech. professor who blocked a classroom door with his body while kids jumped out of windows or hid. Cho shot and killed Librescu; the students who ran survived. But then Librescu was a Holocaust survivior and apparently learned something from it. He wasn't paralyzed with terror by the prospect of a hate-filled lunatic who wanted to kill a lot of harmless and defenseless people. But I can't condemn the kids. This stuff happens so fast, that if you can't somehow make yourself act almost immediately, it's already too late. This thing came out of nowhere on them, and there's no way they could have foreseen the need to be ready for such an event. They had no way to defend themsleves, let alone take out a maniac gunman. To ask more would have meant asking for them to sacrifice themselves. As much as we admire that, we can't demand that someone do it. I've been confronted by an armed man who wanted and tried to kill me, and lemme tell you, my first thought was like Mel Gibson in Signs: "I'm not ready for this!". I desperately wanted to push the pause button that wasn't there. I can't condemn the cops either. You cannot imagine the confusion that in a situation like this. Things are moving fast, and there is no HUD to let you know what's going on outside of your line of sight. But in keeping with the postmodern imperative to scapegoating, they will be blamed, along with the school president. What should come out of this is yet another lesson that the school administrations need a real contingency for even the most bizarre eventuality. And that we are responsible for our own security. We all need to be prepared to act to save our or others' lives. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech My point is, you don't know who will react well. Most people who post on this board have never, and probably will never know. But you can't just discount everyone straight out of hand. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech I know, from first hand experience once again, that with a lot of daily exercise, your confidence levels can very go high up and you can take control of many more social situations, for one example of how it alters you compared to the world around you, than you could without it. My point is that someone with overinflated confidence, not ego, through exercise is most likely much better set as far as strength/endurance, response time/reaction, thinking clearly and also gutsiness in such a circumstance than someone who walks to and from school occasionally getting up for a snack while playing video games. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech I feel bad for that Chiang guy who was unjustly accused. Good thing he isn't the killer because he has a lot of cool rifles just like many people on these forums :rolleyes: |
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Mods, can you delete my original post? I dont want to contribute to mis-information, thanks! http://forums.filefront.com/fh-off-t...ml#post3635509 |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Don't blame the gun?...you american fellows are trully amazing Listen, here in the Mediterranean coast we have hot summers, women like mermaids singing fight with my husband and you will get me, pre-historic quarrels nobody remembers the reason, a freaky and tortured hebrew-christian heritage that makes us to be all day in anger and arguing about any kind of absurd polemic, you get the point? Well, a mass murder happens once in two decades...why?...because we can't go to our local ammunation and say: "hey bro, a want a kalashnikov and two pocket tactical nukes" Balaceras are good for the John Wayne's movies, let the professionals defend yourself, hey, you won over commies, relax...well, Putin is worse than commies but whatever |
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Italy? Pretty tight gun laws too. And yet, warring mafia/camorra/n'drageta clans have every urban and rural economy South of Napoli paralized with their own internecine wars, extortion, murder, whatnot. France? Very hard to bring guns into the country, you say? Good thing the police are unable to enter most of the cités to police this or they'd be in for a rude shock. Nuh-uh, bub, sorry to say it, guns don't kill people. Nor do bullets (well, strictly speaking, they do). It's crazy morons with guns, who'd use other means at their disposal if they didn't have guns (look up Timothy McVeigh and Theodore Kaczynski whenever you get a chance.) In fact, I think the 19 pricks who committed the worst terrorist act ever on American soil used office supplies to create flying bombs (last I checked, boxcutters were available at Home Depot.) Think about that. Maybe Jack Thompson is right, it was the fault of violent video games like this one. Murderer. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech The arguement for gun control centres around "someone loses it, buys a gun, and goes on rampage" This has been dealt with by a waiting period and police check. Anyone who plots to commit something like this, will find a way if they dont have access to guns. They will just use something else. btw. in some counties in Texas where it was a law to carry a gun, the crime rate was virtually nil. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech Frankly I think it's legit to do a psych profile and to require gun training on anyone who wants to buy a gun. The police in Zurich, where I normally live, require you to come in to just chat with a guy before you buy a gun -- he tells you about all the laws, and he was very open to me that part of the reason for this was to make sure you're not a drooling psycho. I know that's not feasible in huge cities, and you don't want some idiot bureaucrat deciding if you can pack or not, but I found it to be a cool idea. There are MANY people whom I don't want to give access to guns (or to cars, children, computers and annoying yappy little dogs.) R-BS, while I appreciate your Texas example, to my knowledge these are mainly rural environments, so the equation is flawed. You generally have less crime in the countryside compared to suburbs or cities, people grow up more familiar with guns so you have fewer accidents and more responsibility, there's more of a social support and pressure network, and a whole lot of other factors. |
Re: Thoughts on Virgina Tech I have another example that you may not like fuzzy, but it does kinda support your theory, it's from Bowling for Columbine :). In canada, the amount of domestic guns, as in private owners, outnumbers the amount of guns in the U.S. In canada the amount of gun deaths, is far below that of the U.S., so owning guns isn't necesariily the problem |
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