BoB Market Garden scene
 

I am referring to the scene where the British tank commander refuses to heed the advice of the US soldier who tells him there is a German tank waiting in ambush at the side of a building; the tank commander replies that although he believes the soldier, he will not destroy the German tank because he is under orders to not damage civilian property. Therefore when he advances, the British tank is destroyed. At the time I thought to myself how could anyone be so utterly stupid to do this- surely they must have made it up.

A good while ago I read on a few forums that this incident really did happen, yet when I was reading a post on one of the Ubisoft.com forums a poster claimed that this never happened and it was just used as a kind of 'dramatic device' by the makers of the show.

If it did happen, then that tank commander was a suicidal (if well meaning) idiot. If it did'nt happen, then I feel it portrays the British as inflexible and incompetent buffoons who ruined the attack for the Americans. What is the truth behind this?
:confused:

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Donutz is your main man he'll be here soon!

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

and all his hawtness :naughty:

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

I wouldn't call the british troops incompetent buffoons, they may've been a little strict with orders, but surely not incompetent.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Some Soldiers follow orders to the line, just seems like he was doing so. He paid with his life in the end.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Did this incident actually happen or was it made up, thats the question I'm asking.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

It will probarly hapend, Maybe not at same exact same place and time.
americans didnt realy care about destroying some stuff, british did care about other proparty's thought.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

It was a jagdpanther wasnt it? If so the tank commander was SOL either way. :P

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

I actually think it was a Tiger. I remember in the episode the turret turned to face the commander when he had is binocs drawn up on it.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/9...2394014sn8.png
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4...2400985ss4.png
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/4...2403939us4.png

pictures > words

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

I say it was made up, but maybe they were trying to emphasize that if Eisenhower were in charge rather than Montgomery things would've been different. ??. Thats what I figure just my crazy idea.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Um, US and Commonwealth/British units were generally under their own country's commanders either until very high up in the chain of command or only for special circumstances/individual missions. That sort of order would not come from Montgomery or Eisenhower.

Anywa, there's something to be said for just blanketing an area in massive amounts of ammunition "just in case".

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Not like Montgomery told them to do that, but the whole operation Market Garden(where Montgomery was in charge). Anyone know what I'm trying to say? More like the bigger picture, similar to the smaller one. What's his face tells him to shoot a couple rounds in that house, but the British guy is reluctant. Something of that nature.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Makes for great TV, doesn't it? :-)

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Super

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

The same scene is in the book, so I doubt it was completely made up.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

I'm pretty sure that he's screwed regardless.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

What, you mean people not following smart advice and doing stupid crap that gets them in trouble happens in real life? Whoa.

:-)

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

That Operation Market Garden episode is one of my favorite BoB episodes. And yes i agree with Yossarian, lol, what a way to put it :lol:.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

http://anwb.nl/published/anwbcms/con...0_enlarged.jpg

http://upload4.postimage.org/873425/...RondArnhem.jpg

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

It was actually very common during Operation Market-Garden, British tankers realy did not want to destroy civilian property until they were certain that enemy uses it's for his purposes, so this is all actaully true (and happened quite alot to annoyance of Americans), along with as Lightning pointed out that scene itself.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Massive expenditure of ammunition > civilized behavior in war.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

It's very fun to read about the British excusing to house owners for having to quarter in and mash the windows. 'We are terribly orry but we have to move into your house, I hope you don't mind. Sorry" :lol: Polite though, better then "okay, get out of this house it has been commandeered by the x/y/z army!".

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

The problem with Market Garden was not inflexible or buffoonish British troops, although IMO the British high command was almost always inflexible and sometimes buffoonish, Monty most of all. The British troops thethousands of paratroopers of the famous British 1st Airborne, held Arnhem Bridge for four days without relief, and fought to the death rather than surrender.

The plan was a shambles, quickly thrown together with no real effort to work out the hundreds of tiny details that such a massive undertaking required. The op was rushed into production and consequently there were massive logisitical problems, with most of the airborne units dropped piecemeal and without the tools they needed to accomplish their respective missions.

But many today think the operation, with all its massive faults, could still have worked if General Horrocks and XXX Corps had shown the least bit of aggressiveness or desire to succeed instead of cautiously (some say timidly) inching to the rescue of the Paras at Arnhem. Even as late as the 4th day of the op the plan could have been successful but for an 18 hours' delay by the Guards Armoured Division at Njimegen in order to, in Horrocks' famous words, "regroup".

Duirng and after the war there was great resentment among the Paras who were at Arnhem against the Guards Armoured for having been abandoned in Arnhem. Many Paras, even to this day, felt that the Guards didn't have much stomach for a fight. Steven Ambrose tells the story of how Lt. Col. John Frost of the 1st Para Brigade's 2th Para Battalion, who had been captured at Arnhem, very late in his life overlooked the spot where the Guards Armoured Division stopped and brewed up tea instead of trying to rescue the desperate paratroopers in Arnhem. Ambrose said Frost's face grew red with rage as he yelled across to the ground that had been empty for over forty years, "Do you call that fighting?!"

On the other hand, American units involved performed excellently. The 82nd Airnborne was even hailed at the time by the commander of the British Second Army, General Dempsey, as "the greatest division in the world today". Pretty high praise.

The failure of Market Garden can be placed at the feet of the British high command, Montgomery in chief. The fault was not with the British troops.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Don't forget that the German officers on the scene and in highcommand thought it would have been possible for Operation Markget Garden to succeed if the Germans react differenly, the Allies would have kept on rolling or if the panzer divisions and reinforcements couldn't be called in as fast as they did. They concluded they were lucky to win the battle.

Also do not forget about the Betuwe, the area between Nijmegen and Arnhem. It's almost flat and from the heights North of the lower rhine you have an excellent view and firing cover. With only a few elevated dikes that would allow tanks to drive on it would be a turkey shoot for any defender since you would have an enemy with only one or two roads to take and nowhere to hide out of sight. The Dutch Royal Army had a test in it's officer training and any person suggesting to move right through the Betuwe would fail automatically since the army high command would forsee a complete and utter man slaughter. DUtch manuals and tactic guides said one should go around the Betuwe to prevent this.

Prince Bernhard (also commander in chief of the army) did tell this to Monty and the high command but they would not listen and insisted on crossin the betuwe regardless.

Free turkey shoot between Waal and Lower Rhine:
http://www.marketgarden.com/2010/UK/pics/krt6.jpg

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Isn't that what the French said about the Ardennes?

*ducks*

:-)

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Tshhh, it's the secret German sneaking in point, noone can notice it's value except them.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Notes the words FRENCH and ARDENNES.

This is the DUTCH about the VELUWE. :D

http://forums.filefront.com/gallery/...337Drawing.JPG

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

"Qucik to the left"

*seconds later*

"WERE SINKINg...lol titanic"
teh end.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Correction:

*Driver panics and goes off the dike nearly toppling the tank over*
*tank reaches underside of the dike*
Commander: ROFL bloody polder, soft grass!!11 n00b
Driver: lolol we're sinking!!1111

Germans: "Hah zhey are stuck in ze über soft grass, stupid tommies und yankies. FEUER!"

And then it was like BOOM ARGH AHHHHHHH dead allies.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Yeah that was the last time. I wasn't referring to WWII. I'm talking about your general staff's textbooks the next time the krauts have a few beers too many and decide to invade someone. The next time they'll bring one of these.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/158/ratte800tk6.jpg

"Veluwe you too, you little boogers." Rumble rumble.

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

I don't think you can get that over a 2-8 meter wide dike. :p Well I think their wouldn't be much of a dike left of you actually managed to get it ontop... With a bit of luck it would only sink into the ground a meter or so... but even if it would not sink it would have a hard time hiding in the open. Can you say artillery barae from the heights upon the plain of the veluwe? :p

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Landkreuzer P1000 Ratte Not Go Over Dyke. Landkreuzer Go Through Dyke. Landkreuzer Make Own Dyke.

Artillery? Ha Ha! Hans, He Say "artillery!" Bounce Off, Plink Ptoink Pank!

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

Situation I:
Tank Commander: "Coomunizte Panzer! Fire"
Driver (laughing): "No! No! Wait, I want to run over him with my tracks!"

Situation II:
The tank is in Berlin.
Tank Commander: "I spotted a communist panzer --- in Moscow."

Re: BoB Market Garden scene
 

I'm afraid that if Germans someday again will decide to flank France through Ardennes with this '*Ardennes will be no more'