Darth Revan versus Darth Vader

[Xellas]

Originally Posted by Granyaski

I didn't say perfect grammar or spelling, I just said that maybe he should stay away from text talk.

u cannot judge if u cant do things well urself. So what if i do it? MMO gaming does that to a person. U should stay away from flaming kid. Besides of being ignorant enough for not know if im a guy or a girl, u only base urself on assumptions and first glances. Im not surpriced looking at ur age.


now to fuyi

Whislt I don't doubt he probably knew Juyo, what's your source for his using its opening stance?

as already told wookieepedia

Vader made his own modified version of Form V, which he taught to Galen Marek, and which Luke also learnt through mirroring Vader's actions when using it.

Stating it? whats the point of quoting a canon quote? Um i guess ur giving more info...thanx i guess.

Juyo doesn't come from Form VII, it was Form VII.
Because it fell out of favour with the Jedi and they all but ceased its practice, it basicly degenerated into an incomplete state.
Windu created Vaapad from what was left, which also became Form VII.

Ah? it does come or it doesnt come From VII? I didnt understood that statement. Again thanx for more info but it doesnt change facts.

Just as Shien was the fifth form so too is Djem So, despite the differences in their intended uses.

Ty again.

Highly skilled doesn't necessarily mean mastery.
Especially not now when "it has been revealed" that the Ancient Sith hadn't been wiped out in the Great Hyperspace War.
Revan may have found out about the True Sith and their Emperor, but it's highly doubtful he would have the same knowledge and abilities they had.

As long as canon articles state he was a master in the force. The rest its non consecuentenial.

Aside from the bond with Bastila, whom else did he have a Force Bond with?
Remember that bond had been forged as a side effect from Bastila saving his life, so essentially it was Bastila who created the bond and not Revan.

Revan didnt do that bond, thats true. Tho he did investigated and later applied the Force bonding.All this in the "Revanchist" time and the Mandalorian Wars. Kreia stated he managed to turn officers against its own ppl worlds that way. That is Forming force bonds with non-force users.

Vader had telepathy as well.
So did Exar Kun, Jorus C'boath, Joruus C'baoth, Kyp Duron, infact, it wasn't an exclusive or unique ability for specific Jedi or Sith.

If he had, it woundt had been soo difficult to get out of his own daughter the information he wanted about the Rebel base.
Also where do u get that?

Not anymore he didn't.

what do u mean by that? who said not anymore?

Again, I remind you that he also could use telepathy.
By the way, it's not Blaster Deflection, it's Force Deflection.
Yoda, Obi-Wan, Luke, Vader, Rahm Kota..... again, it's not that much of a unique power.

I quoted the word force deflection, if u most correct ppl correct the canon info then, not me.
Also i never read anywhere that Vader could download info and upload it ro ppls minds. The only thing was that jedis and siths could control low mind ppl to do what the wanted tho again not get information from them.

He might not have been able to generate it, but he would've been able to deflect it had he not been using his arms to raise the Emperor up.

its already stated by canon quote he could not generate not deflect or anything the force lighting. Having his arm wont make a difference.

Again, he made a modified version of Djem So to use in combat.

ur point?

The single biggest flaw with everything Force and Lightsaber based that you've posted in the above, is that it's not just about what Revan might have known, but how well he could utilise it.

wokieepedia ftw. Whats the purpose of doing a ready stance if not to use it?

Vader could lift someone and crush them through the Force with great ease.

also any jedi with an avarage lvl. Starkiller just to name one.

Various Jedi Masters were like "playthings" to his strength with the Force and Lightsaber.

like who exactly?

He could use all his abilities with great ease, even to the point where those which typically require arm/hand gestures are done with simple thought i.e. Duelling Luke on Bespin, where he doesn't wave his hand around to throw the contents of a room at Luke.

Sadly using his eased abilities got him killed.

All in all, your "real canon examples" are mere conjecture and assumption.

sorry to say, ur the one making conjectures. I made quotes, copy pasted, from real sites. I can give u the benefi my conclusion could be conjectures as for the rest ur just fighting aimlessly with copy pasted canon info.

[Fyurii]

Originally Posted by Xellas

now to fuyi

Who's fuyi???????

Originally Posted by Xellas

as already told wookieepedia

Read my previous post for my comments on that.

Originally Posted by Xellas

Stating it? whats the point of quoting a canon quote? Um i guess ur giving more info...thanx i guess

Not quite, I'm just pointing out your innaccuracy of saying that Vader never created any 'saber form or Force Form, which you repeat later aswell.

Originally Posted by Xellas

Ah? it does come or it doesnt come From VII? I didnt understood that statement. Again thanx for more info but it doesnt change facts.

Juyo does not come from Form VII.
Until about 1000BBY, it was Form VII.
Over the next millenia, it became a less used form by the Jedi.
It got to the point that it was considered incomplete.

When Mace Windu created Vaapad, it was based on what was left of Juyo, but was different upon completion.
Both Juyo and Vaapad are Form VII.

Originally Posted by Xellas

Ty again.

You're welcome.
The reason I used Form V, was that Djem So was created three-millenia after Revan's time, around the time of the New Sith Wars.

Originally Posted by Xellas

As long as canon articles state he was a master in the force. The rest its non consecuentenial.

That aspect of canon may soon be on the receiving end of some revisions.
He couldn't have mastered the Dark Side, since there was obviously more to learn that the Sith Emperor knew, which Revan wouldn't have.

Yes, that's speculation on my part, but certainly feasible.

Originally Posted by Xellas

Revan didnt do that bond, thats true. Tho he did investigated and later applied the Force bonding.All this in the "Revanchist" time and the Mandalorian Wars. Kreia stated he managed to turn officers against its own ppl worlds that way. That is Forming force bonds with non-force users.

Incorrect.
He couldn't form them the same way The Exile could, or to the same degree.
It's suggested, but not stated.
The greater likelihood, again from Kreia herself, was to do with Force Wounds.
Besides which, he's hardly alone in accomplishing such things.
Two other examples of those who could do the same kind of manipulation of Force Sensitives and non-Sensitives as Revan, were Sidious and Joruus C'boath.

They could manipulate and influence other Force Users through deception and the Force together.

But what he didn't do, was forcibly create Force Bonds.
He took advantage of Wounds in the Force.
That was what he investigated, after he witnessed what happened to the Jedi survivors of the Battle of Malachor V.
Also remember, that those who followed him to war, Jedi and non-Jedi alike were changed by their experiences of the Mandalorian Wars.
They became more aggressive, more akin to the Mandalorians themselves.
-Despising weakness, holding such weakness with contempt, flourishing on combat and death.
They were moving more and more to the Dark Side, because they followed a charismatic leader with a dominant presence who said aloud the desire they shared to fight the Mandalorians.
By creating more of these Force Wounds, he was able to capture and convert more Jedi to his cause.
Those who didn't convert, were killed.

Originally Posted by Xellas

If he had, it woundt had been soo difficult to get out of his own daughter the information he wanted about the Rebel base.
Also where do u get that?

You've never listened to the radio play of Star Wars before have you?
It's G-Level canon, and he uses it on her in that.
However, as Vader says in Star Wars, "Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable".
That, combined with the fact that it was 1977, and not 1983.

He also demonstrated his telepathy in Return of The Jedi, near the end of his duel with Luke, when he finds for the first time that he has a daughter.
To quote directly from RoTJ - "Your thoughts betray you, your feelings for them are strong.
Especially for.... Sister!
So, you have a twin sister!"
If that's not telepathy, then what is????

Where do I get what?
The other people who could use telepathy???

Exar Kun taught Kyp Duron how to tear information from people's minds.
Joruus C'baoth was a clone of Jedi Master Jorus C'baoth that was created by Palpatine to guard Mount Tantiss on the planet Wayland.
He had the same abilities plus more than the original C'baoth.
When he was deceiving Luke on Jomark, he told Luke he should just take information from people's minds.

Originally Posted by Xellas

what do u mean by that? who said not anymore?

I mean that with the creation of the Sith Emperor of the True Sith, who kept himself alive for about 1500 years, there's more to the powers of the Dark Side to be found.
Revan didn't know those things, because he intended to stop the True Sith, which means he couldn't have learnt such abilities and knowledge that the Sith Emperor had.

I already explained this two posts ago.

Originally Posted by Xellas

I quoted the word force deflection, if u most correct ppl correct the canon info then, not me.
Also i never read anywhere that Vader could download info and upload it ro ppls minds. The only thing was that jedis and siths could control low mind ppl to do what the wanted tho again not get information from them.

No, you said Blaster Deflection.

I can't correct canon info, since it's already correct.

Originally Posted by Xellas

its already stated by canon quote he could not generate not deflect or anything the force lighting. Having his arm wont make a difference.

It's true he couldn't use Force Lightning, but there's nothing saying that he couldn't deflect it.
Especially when Force Deflection was an ability taught to Galen Marek by Vader.

Having the use of his arm would make a difference, given that he was already injured and exhausted from his fight with Luke.

Most Force abilities that aren't passive in nature, require arm and hand gestures, and Force Deflection is one of them.
Look at Yoda deflecting Sidious' and Dooku's Lightning attacks.
Obi-Wan deflecting the projectiles Durge fired at him from his gattling gauntlet.
Vader used Force Deflection to prevent Han's blaster shots from hitting him on Cloud City.

With the use of one or even both arms, he could have defended himself against Palpatine's Lightning.

Originally Posted by Xellas

ur point?

It was again in response to your second use of the inaccurate statement that Vader never created his own 'saber or Force forms.

Originally Posted by Xellas

wokieepedia ftw. Whats the purpose of doing a ready stance if not to use it?

Wookieepedia is not the source of canon information.
Yes, you can find canon info on there, but you also should check the sources cited.

There is no source cited for his using a Juyo ready stance, and the stance doesn't look like it's from either Kendo or Kenjutsu, as mentioned in my previous post.

You don't seem to understand the difference between being able to do something, and be able to do something well.
Some clarification for you.
Dooku and Sidious could use Force Lightning.
Dooku could not use it to the same effect that Sidious could.
Sidious was better at using it than Dooku was.

Originally Posted by Xellas

also any jedi with an avarage lvl. Starkiller just to name one.

Galen Marek wasn't an average Jedi.
He was described by the game's devs as being "Luke Skywalker, if he had turned to the Dark Side".
That statement was approved by Lucas, given his involvment with the making of TFU.
Before you ask, his involvment was personally approving the kinds of things they did for the storyline and abilities.

Marek's father certainly wasn't a pushover, or average, and Vader defeated him with ease.

Originally Posted by Xellas

Sadly using his eased abilities got him killed.

I'd love to know how the above is true.

How exactly did his being able to use certain Force abilities with great ease get him killed?
How could being able to use the Force with ease get someone killed?

Originally Posted by Xellas

sorry to say, ur the one making conjectures. I made quotes, copy pasted, from real sites. I can give u the benefi my conclusion could be conjectures as for the rest ur just fighting aimlessly with copy pasted canon info.

You say sites, plural.
What sites other than Wookieepedia did you use?
Unless it's the Star Wars Databank, there is no other official site.
Wookieepedia itself is semi-official, since it is probably the second most recognised SW info site, and is only maintained by volunteers.

Did you check that actual sources of the information you used?
Copy and paste answers don't mean much if you don't apply context, or look for coroborative information.

I'm not fighting aimlessly with copy & pasted canon info.

I'm using canon information to support the things I say in contrast to your apparent self-proclaimed canon source of information.
Wookieepedia is not canon.
You can find the canon information on there, but you have to examine it against the sources and other relevant information that supports it.
Otherwise, you run the risk of copying what you want, and not having the context correct.


At the end of the day though, you stand by your views, and I stand by mine.
Let's just leave it there, and agree to disagree.

Have fun, and enjoy the rest your day/night/what ever time it is where you are.

[Granyaski]

Wow he's really got to fyuri....
it's pronounced fury isn't it?
sorry bit off topic....

[Fyurii]

Originally Posted by Granyaski

Wow he's really got to fyuri....
it's pronounced fury isn't it?
sorry bit off topic....

Close..... add an "i" to the end.
Phonetic spelling = Fee-ur-ee-i.

He hasn't gotten to me, I just recognise and acknowledge a "no-win" situation when I see it.
Better we just agree to disagree, rather than just keep going in circles like dogs chasing their own tails.

[badbama06]

I think that Darth Revan would win. If you play the KOTOR 2 you hear characters in the game talk about how they are not sure that Raven is alive or dead. Raven was a very mysterious person and could control thousand. He was powerful in the force, (I admit not as powerful as Vader) and had seen and experienced a lot of things in his time. I have deep respect for both Raven and Vader. Yes, Vader was the choosen one, but Darth Sidies was the one who orded the order "66" to wipe out all remaining jedi. Not Vader. Vader was destined to save Padma. If Vader would have beatin Obi Won then the battle between Raven and Vader would be a VERY intense battle. It would be close. I've heard people say, "Well, Vader could minipulate people". True, but so could Raven. Vader had it easy when Order 66 came into play. He didn't really have a challenge until he found out he had a son. Then he got soft (As much as people are probably gonna hate that part. You know it was true.). Raven had no feelings. He did what he wanted and planned his approach on things in a way Vader couldn't. So, overall my choice is Raven. Because of the history he has made and the experice in the force. I have respect for both Raven and Vader, but my choice would be Raven. Lol, oh! And i think they should make a movie about KOTOR 1 and 2

[Granyaski]

wow caps aholic....

Game mechanics dude, got to listen for the cannon. Of course they have to make Revan(notice the spelling:P) seem all powerful so the game would sell....of course he was very powerful then but he is about 2000 years before Vader's time.

He didnt have it easy after order 66....Sidious did but there were events such as the conclave on Kessel where he killed (cant remember) but 9 Jedi's at once almost dying twice in the battle.